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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 19 2013, 03:11 AM   #61
slappy
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Re: what do people want star trek 3 to be like

I want Trek to not be afraid to play the "smart" card this time. There needed to be action and effects to get people in the theater the first two times. Three can have that too, but don't dumb it down. Slowing things down and focusing on character instead of plot points would be nice as well.

Include the Klingons, but don't include any other homages. None. No in-referencing old movies or episodes. No Spock Prime.
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Old June 19 2013, 03:33 AM   #62
greenlight
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Re: what do people want star trek 3 to be like

Sran wrote: View Post
greenlight wrote: View Post
I guess the operative word is 'diminish'. When they say the 1701-E has 24 decks and then later refer to deck 26, that diminishes my enjoyment but doesn't prevent it.
But why let something like that bother you? Whenever I hear someething like that, I usually ignore it. It's not relevant to the film's plot. If they missed a detail like Romulans having pointed ears and didn't explain it on screen, I'd be upset. But saying that whomever is in command of a ship being called "Captain" always applies while referring to Kirk as "Admiral" is something I could overlook.

--Sran
So if Romulans were shown without pointed ears that would be relevant to the plot and that would 'bother' you but if I complain about 78 decks, or pulling 'transwarp beaming' out of their butt to advance the plot, then I should just ignore it?

I would've thought that the idea that internal consistency in fiction was enjoyable and satisfying (and that internal inconsistency in fiction was unsatisfying) to be pretty uncontroversial. I'm amazed that so much of the commentary boils down to "Stop thinking about it! Stop pointing it out! It's only a movie!!" This is a Star Trek forum, right? Isn't that part of what we're supposed to do?
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Old June 19 2013, 03:36 AM   #63
BillJ
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Re: what do people want star trek 3 to be like

greenlight wrote: View Post
I would've thought that the idea that internal consistency in fiction was enjoyable and satisfying (and that internal inconsistency in fiction was unsatisfying) to be pretty uncontroversial. I'm amazed that so much of the commentary boils down to "Stop thinking about it! Stop pointing it out! It's only a movie!!" This is a Star Trek forum, right? Isn't that part of what we're supposed to do?
You need to enjoy Star Trek in a way that makes sense to you. But don't be surprised if many of us aren't as hung-up on the trivialities.
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Old June 19 2013, 03:42 AM   #64
Sran
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Re: what do people want star trek 3 to be like

greenlight wrote: View Post
So if Romulans were shown without pointed ears that would be relevant to the plot and that would 'bother' you but if I complain about 78 decks, or pulling 'transwarp beaming' out of their butt to advance the plot, then I should just ignore it?
One of these is a glaring error that even casual fans would notice. The others are things only hardcore Trek fans would be aware of.

greenlight wrote:
I would've thought that the idea that internal consistency in fiction was enjoyable and satisfying (and that internal inconsistency in fiction was unsatisfying) to be pretty uncontroversial. I'm amazed that so much of the commentary boils down to "Stop thinking about it! Stop pointing it out! It's only a movie!!" This is a Star Trek forum, right? Isn't that part of what we're supposed to do?
Even a place like this has its limits. Some things just aren't worth pitching a fit about. Most people who post here know that the Enterprise-A doesn't have seventy eight decks, but that doesn't mean one can't enjoy that scene. Part of the reason I like the scene is because of the error. It's funny to see something so ridiculous happen, partly because a terrific scene in the forward observation room happens moments after it.

Don't take life too seriously. You'll never get out alive.

--Sran
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Old June 19 2013, 04:29 AM   #65
greenlight
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Re: what do people want star trek 3 to be like

Sran wrote: View Post
greenlight wrote: View Post
So if Romulans were shown without pointed ears that would be relevant to the plot and that would 'bother' you but if I complain about 78 decks, or pulling 'transwarp beaming' out of their butt to advance the plot, then I should just ignore it?
One of these is a glaring error that even casual fans would notice. The others are things only hardcore Trek fans would be aware of.

greenlight wrote:
I would've thought that the idea that internal consistency in fiction was enjoyable and satisfying (and that internal inconsistency in fiction was unsatisfying) to be pretty uncontroversial. I'm amazed that so much of the commentary boils down to "Stop thinking about it! Stop pointing it out! It's only a movie!!" This is a Star Trek forum, right? Isn't that part of what we're supposed to do?
Even a place like this has its limits. Some things just aren't worth pitching a fit about. Most people who post here know that the Enterprise-A doesn't have seventy eight decks, but that doesn't mean one can't enjoy that scene. Part of the reason I like the scene is because of the error. It's funny to see something so ridiculous happen, partly because a terrific scene in the forward observation room happens moments after it.

Don't take life too seriously. You'll never get out alive.

--Sran
Oh good grief. First of all, a lot of the stuff we're talking about is stuff that the casual viewer would be aware of if they're paying any kind of attention (like specifically saying there are 24 decks, and then talking about 'decks 26 through 11'. Secondly, I don't think the distinction between hard-core trek nerds and casual, disinterested observers is as strong as it used to be. Star Trek has seeped into popular culture enough that a lot of casual viewers notice discrepancies even if they're not the kind of people who go to conventions or lurk around these parts.

By your own admission, if they show a Romulan without ears, that would be a glaring omission, relevant to the plot, that everyone would notice and would bother you. Why wouldn't that be something that you'd ignore, or enjoy because of the ridiculousness of the error? I mean, hey, life's too short, right?

So to be clear: I'm not 'pitching a fit'. I'm not 'taking life too seriously'. I'm on a Star Trek thread talking about what I do and don't like about Star Trek. If everyone's complaints except yours are irrelevant, you should just state that up front.
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Old June 19 2013, 04:40 AM   #66
Sran
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Re: what do people want star trek 3 to be like

greenlight wrote: View Post
Oh good grief. First of all, a lot of the stuff we're talking about is stuff that the casual viewer would be aware of if they're paying any kind of attention (like specifically saying there are 24 decks, and then talking about 'decks 26 through 11'.
Unlikely. I've watched Star Trek since I was five years old, and I didn't know the Enterprise-E had twenty four decks. Don't kid yourself by believing other people would notice such insignificant details.

greenlight wrote:
Secondly, I don't think the distinction between hard-core trek nerds and casual, disinterested observers is as strong as it used to be. Star Trek has seeped into popular culture enough that a lot of casual viewers notice discrepancies even if they're not the kind of people who go to conventions or lurk around these parts.
And you'd be wrong about that.

greenlight wrote:
By your own admission, if they show a Romulan without ears, that would be a glaring omission, relevant to the plot, that everyone would notice and would bother you. Why wouldn't that be something that you'd ignore, or enjoy because of the ridiculousness of the error? I mean, hey, life's too short, right?
No, because pointed ears are an essential part of the Romulan race. The overwhelming majority of people who watch Star Trek know that Romulans have pointed ears. That's not the case where the number of decks on the Enterprise is concerned. See the difference? And my statement about not taking life too seriously was a joke. That you'd whine about it indicates you are taking things far too seriously. It's Star Trek. It's not real. Chill out.

greenlight wrote:
So to be clear: I'm not 'pitching a fit'. I'm not 'taking life too seriously'. I'm on a Star Trek thread talking about what I do and don't like about Star Trek. If everyone's complaints except yours are irrelevant, you should just state that up front.
Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said that only my complaints were relevant. I merely stated that I think you're going overboard by whining about a mistake with the number of decks on a starship. Honestly, how many people do you really think notice something like that? I never noticed until you brought it up, and I've been watching these movies for years.

Once again: chill out.

--Sran
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Old June 19 2013, 05:03 AM   #67
greenlight
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Re: what do people want star trek 3 to be like

Sran wrote: View Post
greenlight wrote: View Post
Oh good grief. First of all, a lot of the stuff we're talking about is stuff that the casual viewer would be aware of if they're paying any kind of attention (like specifically saying there are 24 decks, and then talking about 'decks 26 through 11'.
Unlikely. I've watched Star Trek since I was five years old, and I didn't know the Enterprise-E had twenty four decks. Don't kid yourself by believing other people would notice such insignificant details.

greenlight wrote:
Secondly, I don't think the distinction between hard-core trek nerds and casual, disinterested observers is as strong as it used to be. Star Trek has seeped into popular culture enough that a lot of casual viewers notice discrepancies even if they're not the kind of people who go to conventions or lurk around these parts.
And you'd be wrong about that.

greenlight wrote:
By your own admission, if they show a Romulan without ears, that would be a glaring omission, relevant to the plot, that everyone would notice and would bother you. Why wouldn't that be something that you'd ignore, or enjoy because of the ridiculousness of the error? I mean, hey, life's too short, right?
No, because pointed ears are an essential part of the Romulan race. The overwhelming majority of people who watch Star Trek know that Romulans have pointed ears. That's not the case where the number of decks on the Enterprise is concerned. See the difference? And my statement about not taking life too seriously was a joke. That you'd whine about it indicates you are taking things far too seriously. It's Star Trek. It's not real. Chill out.

greenlight wrote:
So to be clear: I'm not 'pitching a fit'. I'm not 'taking life too seriously'. I'm on a Star Trek thread talking about what I do and don't like about Star Trek. If everyone's complaints except yours are irrelevant, you should just state that up front.
Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said that only my complaints were relevant. I merely stated that I think you're going overboard by whining about a mistake with the number of decks on a starship. Honestly, how many people do you really think notice something like that? I never noticed until you brought it up, and I've been watching these movies for years.

Once again: chill out.

--Sran
So you never said that only your complaints were relevant, but pointed ears are an essential part of the Romulan race, whose omission would be a glaring error worthy of mention, but deck counts are stupid and any errors I point out are insignificant details that nobody notices but me, and if somebody does notice then I'm wrong about that because you've never noticed them, and you were clearly joking about taking life too seriously, but I'm whining and I really need to chill out.

Have I missed anything?
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Old June 19 2013, 05:39 AM   #68
M'Sharak
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Re: what do people want star trek 3 to be like

greenlight wrote: View Post
Sran wrote: View Post
<snip>
So you never said that only your complaints were relevant, but pointed ears are an essential part of the Romulan race, whose omission would be a glaring error worthy of mention, but deck counts are stupid and any errors I point out are insignificant details that nobody notices but me, and if somebody does notice then I'm wrong about that because you've never noticed them, and you were clearly joking about taking life too seriously, but I'm whining and I really need to chill out.

Have I missed anything?
I think most people aren't nearly so detail-oriented or detail-attentive, even among those who'd consider themselves more than just casual Trek fans. There's nothing wrong with immersing oneself in that level of detail, but it's certainly not something that the casual fan can or should be expected to be cognizant of to any great degree.

Speaking only for myself, I've been watching this stuff for a long time, and while I may notice if something is out of place or is inconsistent with the way it's been depicted previously in episode X, Y or Z, there have also been plenty of times where such an "error" completely escaped my attention until it was mentioned by another fan some time much later. As long as I'm having fun, though—as long as I'm being entertained—then it's generally not a big deal for me if every detail isn't exactly in line with the way it's been shown before. That's just part of episodic storytelling, and part of having different stories told from different perspectives - things may look a bit different from story to story, and that's perfectly all right.

Leaning back and chilling out can also be good for one's perspective; it is possible to examine a thing too closely, so that from then on it will never again look quite right, regardless of the angle from which it is viewed.
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Old June 19 2013, 06:23 AM   #69
greenlight
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Re: what do people want star trek 3 to be like

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
greenlight wrote: View Post
Sran wrote: View Post
<snip>
So you never said that only your complaints were relevant, but pointed ears are an essential part of the Romulan race, whose omission would be a glaring error worthy of mention, but deck counts are stupid and any errors I point out are insignificant details that nobody notices but me, and if somebody does notice then I'm wrong about that because you've never noticed them, and you were clearly joking about taking life too seriously, but I'm whining and I really need to chill out.

Have I missed anything?
I think most people aren't nearly so detail-oriented or detail-attentive, even among those who'd consider themselves more than just casual Trek fans. There's nothing wrong with immersing oneself in that level of detail, but it's certainly not something that the casual fan can or should be expected to be cognizant of to any great degree.

Speaking only for myself, I've been watching this stuff for a long time, and while I may notice if something is out of place or is inconsistent with the way it's been depicted previously in episode X, Y or Z, there have also been plenty of times where such an "error" completely escaped my attention until it was mentioned by another fan some time much later. As long as I'm having fun, though—as long as I'm being entertained—then it's generally not a big deal for me if every detail isn't exactly in line with the way it's been shown before. That's just part of episodic storytelling, and part of having different stories told from different perspectives - things may look a bit different from story to story, and that's perfectly all right.

Leaning back and chilling out can also be good for one's perspective; it is possible to examine a thing too closely, so that from then on it will never again look quite right, regardless of the angle from which it is viewed.
Lots of categories tend to get mixed up in these discussions as well. For instance the deck count mistake in First Contact is (I presume) an unintentional error. It seems like one that would've been easy to catch and correct, but still, just a mistake. Even Sran's hypothetical Romulan Van Gogh would be an unintentional error, an oversight by the makeup department or some such. The deck mistake in STV is a little more egregious because it was clearly intentional. At some point somebody pointed out to the writer/director/producer that the most you could look up on a single shaft on that ship was maybe 20 decks and they said "Screw that. That's not dramatic enough. Nobody cares except the fans." That seems a) dismissive and b) lazy. I don't consider the transwarp beaming an error, just a lazy plot device.

And that's sort of my point. Star Trek has been plagued by all sorts of errors from the beginning. Some unintentional. Some deliberate. Some lazy. I'd hoped that a reboot would be an opportunity to fix some things, edify some things, ignore some bad precedents. Instead it seems like they jumped in with both feet and started making all kinds of questionable decisions that made the whole universe even muddier than before. I think that makes it harder to accept the series on its own terms.

I have some friends who are diehard James Bond fans. They've seen every Star Trek movie and every episode of TOS and probably TNG and probably quite a bit of the rest of the shows but they don't really think of themselves as Trekkers. They'll sit and argue passionately for hours about all the James Bond books and movies and get all ginned up about every tiny detail but if I mention that engineering really looks like a brewery they'll start in with "It's only a movie! Why can't you just enjoy it for what it is?!" I don't really like it but I expect it from them. I don't really expect that here, on a Star Trek forum (or at least I didn't).
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Old June 19 2013, 06:54 AM   #70
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Re: what do people want star trek 3 to be like

Hey if you don't like the deck count thing or the brewery thing and that makes you hate the movies then that's your right.

Those things don't bother me much. For all I knew there were 76 decks on the Enterprise. Its only after the movie I found out that there weren't. And I honestly don't think Shatner knew or cared either - its just a job to him.

You know two things that bother me about Star Trek, that poster of Spock brandishing a gun - that's not the Spock I want him to be. Nimoy Spock's last resort was violence - but that's not the way the franchise is going - bad luck to me.
Also I hate that rabbit in 'Shore Leave'. It makes me angry through the whole episode. Other people couldn't care less.

But I personally respect your right to be worried over some error. You may hate the brewery but I do not. Its not that I'm just 'letting it go' - I just thought it was good as any engine room I've seen and even liked it more in STID.
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Old June 19 2013, 02:43 PM   #71
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: what do people want star trek 3 to be like

Something original.

Oh and an end to Spock/Uhura.
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Old June 19 2013, 02:54 PM   #72
Sran
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Re: what do people want star trek 3 to be like

greenlight wrote: View Post
Have I missed anything?
You've missed everything as it turns out.

--Sran
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Old June 19 2013, 07:32 PM   #73
geneo
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Re: what do people want star trek 3 to be like

Why end Spock/Uhura! This is an alternate time line, it may have not worked in prime but let it work here. Since this is an alternate reality, not everything is going to be just as we remember it from the movies, series, books. Just enjoy the experience and keep in mind, this is not Prime, but alternate where about anything goes.
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Old June 19 2013, 11:39 PM   #74
Sran
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Re: what do people want star trek 3 to be like

geneo wrote: View Post
Why end Spock/Uhura! This is an alternate time line, it may have not worked in prime but let it work here. Since this is an alternate reality, not everything is going to be just as we remember it from the movies, series, books. Just enjoy the experience and keep in mind, this is not Prime, but alternate where about anything goes.
I don't buy that. It may be an alternate reality, but the characters should still resemble their counterparts to a large degree. The Spock/Uhura thing doesn't bother me, but the idea that anything else goes does. Even nuTrek needs to have limits.

--Sran
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Old June 20 2013, 06:57 AM   #75
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Re: what do people want star trek 3 to be like

Partly because I find Zoe Saldana very irritating to watch; but mostly because the character of Uhura needs proper development, not simply there as a "love interest" (also how they got together and the sway she has over him bugs me as well).

If anything more time needs to be given to the three-way bromance. There have been Kirk/McCoy moment and Kirk/Spock moments, but Kirk/Spock/McCoy moments have been very light--especially seeing as it was the core relationship of TOS.
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