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TrekToday http://www.trektoday.com/content Daily Star Trek news Sun, 02 Aug 2015 16:53:37 +0000 en-US hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.2.3 Retro Review: Learning Curve http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/retro-review-learning-curve/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/retro-review-learning-curve/#comments Fri, 31 Jul 2015 21:16:02 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41256 Tuvok attempts to train four Maquis crewmembers who are having difficulty following Starfleet protocols.

Plot Summary: Lieutenant Dalby discovers a malfunctioning bio-neural gel pack and replaces it without getting authorization, which causes several systems ship-wide to stop working. Tuvok expresses concern to Janeway that Dalby and some other Maquis crewmembers are not trained or disciplined enough to work on a Starfleet vessel. Though Janeway is more worried about the possibility of multiple gel pack failures disabling Voyager’s systems, she recommends an on-the-job training course for the crewmembers having the greatest difficulties. Chakotay gives onetime Starfleet Academy instructor Tuvok a list of possible candidates, from which Tuvok selects four junior officers – impulsive Dalby, belligerent Henley, unfocused Chell, and bitter Gerron – who deeply resent being singled out for extra attention. The group complains when Tuvok insists that they remove all traces of their personal style from their professional demeanor and marches out after what they consider to be an unfair physical exercise. Neelix offers Tuvok some wisdom about plant stalks needing to be flexible, which Tuvok at first takes to mean that the young crewmembers are too rigid, then discovers that Neelix means to criticize himself and his teaching methods. He tries to get to know Dalby and realizes that some of the Maquis crewmembers suffered traumas that make it impossible for them to become contented, well-adjusted Starfleet officers overnight. Meanwhile, the Doctor discovers that Neelix’s attempt to make cheese has cultivated a bacteria that now infects the gel packs. The Doctor proposes raising the temperature to help the gel packs fight off the infection, but although the gel packs are saved, Tuvok and his unhappy team become trapped in a cargo bay where Gerron is injured. Dalby becomes irate when Tuvok orders him to get to safety with Henley and Chell, but when Tuvok himself violates procedure, risking his life to save Gerron, the Maquis officers are impressed and promise to work harder to obey the rules.

Analysis: I didn’t like “Learning Curve” when it first aired for its obnoxious attitude toward Maquis dissidents and indeed toward anyone who refused to assimilate entirely into Starfleet’s arbitrary regulations, which I thought at the time might just reflect my lack of understanding of how military protocols worked. But it rubs me the wrong way even more so now that we’ve seen some of the history of Vulcan intolerance in Enterprise, and now that we know the Maquis will be asked to give up their sense of belonging to their own cultures as well as their identities as members of an organization in conflict with Starfleet (the latter a demand that’s completely justified on a mission like Voyager’s, though I note that Worf was allowed to wear the accoutrements of a Klingon warrior on duty even when the Klingons were at war with the Federation). Of course it’s a problem that many of the Maquis have not had Starfleet training in teamwork, physical fitness, even self-protection, though I might note that Neelix and Kes haven’t either. It would seem both reasonable and fair for Tuvok to include them in a course to get underprepared crewmembers ready for life traveling through the Delta Quadrant, particularly since Kes had never left her village, let alone her homeworld, until just before Voyager arrived. The cheese incident that almost destroys the bio-neural gel packs is a far more heinous betrayal of safety protocols than the replacement of one of those gel packs, even if Dalby is rude when reprimanded while Neelix only stammers in embarrassment. And surely there are Starfleet crewmembers as well as Maquis who were unprepared to have a brief mission into the Badlands turn into a potentially lifelong journey? Couldn’t many of the junior officers use a refresher course in focus and teamwork? If Janeway and Chakotay’s goal is to get their two crews functioning as a single unit with the same ease with which Torres now works with Carey, they’d be well advised to include some Starfleet officers in the remedial class even just for show. Not so long ago, Tom Paris was a criminal and Torres was punching fellow officers, while now they’re fourth and fifth in the command chain; seems like a lot of people on that ship could use a bit of extra attention.

And although Tuvok may have been an Academy instructor for more than a decade, he seems like the wrong person to be leading an exercise in new-to-Starfleet teamwork. These angry, demoralized Maquis crewmembers need a counselor, not a disciplinarian; the morale officer might do them more good, and indeed does them more good when he lectures Tuvok, than a stern Vulcan whom they consider a traitor to their cause. I think it’s a mistake that we see the senior officers’ point of view rather than that of the recruits, since we don’t get to learn the positive independent-minded aspects of what Chakotay dismisses as “the Maquis way.” A strong left hook may get someone hauled before a disciplinary committee in Starfleet, but we’ve had such behavior by the Klingons rammed down our throats for years now as something we should admire, so it just doesn’t look particularly outrageous when a Maquis crewmember does precisely what a Klingon would do in a similar situation of being singled out for his temper. Apart from Dalby, who joined the Maquis because Cardassians brutalized his girlfriend, we never get to know the Maquis crewmembers, and the more Tuvok talks, the more arrogant he seems, like the obnoxious Vulcans of “Take Me Out to the Holosuite” rather than thoughtful, nuanced individuals like Spock and Sarek. Now that the US military and other such organizations have relaxed their rules about whether and when soldiers can wear yarmulkes, hijabs, and other items directly related to the practice of religion, I feel even more justified in my fury against Tuvok when he orders Gerron to take off his Bajoran earring – an accessory quite different from the headband that Tuvok forbids Henley to wear. The Bajoran earring is a symbol of faith. It’s also a mark of one’s family and social caste, two things that the young Gerron has lost being stranded 70,000 light years from home. Whether he had lost those already in a traumatic incident that led him to join the Maquis, as Dalby seems to believe, or whether he joined the Maquis out of sympathy for the settlers’ desire to protect their homes, like Kasidy Yates, Gerron is clearly clinging to this one meaningful relic of his former life, which Tuvok orders him to put away without any care for its significance.

Clearly, Tuvok is obsessed with the letter of the law rather than its spirit – he’s closer to being Javert from Les Miserables than was Sisko when Eddington mocked him with that sobriquet – but given the pettiness of the Vulcans we saw in many TNG and DS9 episodes, I gather we’re supposed to assume that it’s because Tuvok’s a Vulcan, for whom logic demands holding even to the most trivial of regulations. But I can’t understand why Chakotay agrees to let someone whom he thought served his own cause, then turned out to have been working behind his back all along, serve as corrections officer for other Maquis crewmembers. Chakotay’s facial tattoo would not be permitted even in the current US military, and I’d love to hear his response if Tuvok ordered him to remove it or cover it up. He’s usually a champion of diversity and broadmindedness, yet he seems amused at the thought of having four shipmates for whom he was once responsible, who are as troubled as they are troubling, put under Tuvok’s yoke. Of course ship-wide discipline is important in a crisis, as we see when it takes much of the crew working together to solve the problem with the gel packs, but a rigid dress code for people who will be working together for many years can hardly be the element that makes them see themselves as a team. It will be acknowledging, understanding, accepting, and taking advantage of their differences which will accomplish that. If the Starfleet uniform serves to bond Voyager’s crew in early days, it later serves to homogenize them; no wonder Sisko preferred spending his off-duty hours in African dress and Kira never stopped wearing her Bajoran earring even when in Starfleet uniform. “Learning Curve” fails in its effort to be “Lower Decks” because it fears to let us get to know and admire the quirks of the individual Maquis, erasing their distinct histories and grievances even as Janeway’s off playing traditional British governess in a traditional British novel knockoff. She needs to spend more time thinking about exactly which aspects of the Federation she plans to keep thriving on her ship as it creeps toward home.

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Star Trek: The Exhibition In Washington State http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/star-trek-the-exhibition-in-washington-state/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/star-trek-the-exhibition-in-washington-state/#comments Fri, 31 Jul 2015 19:00:37 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41252 Star Trek: The Exhibition will be arriving at the Washington State Fair in September.

The Washington State Fair will take place September 11-27 in Puyallup.

Star Trek: The Exhibition, under license by CBS Consumer Products, will run for seventeen days and gives visitors the opportunity to enjoy an interactive, museum-style experience of one of the largest collections of authentic Star Trek artifacts and information ever put on public display. This is a separate ticketed exhibit, and requires Fair admission. Exhibit tickets can be purchased in advance for $6.50 until Sept 10 here, or $8 at the State Fair. Children five years and under are free in the exhibit with a paid adult. Online orders are subject to standard processing fees.

The Exhibition brings visitors into the Star Trek universe and allows them to connect with iconic Star Trek moments. Throughout this experience, visitors, especially younger visitors and youth, will be inspired and motivated to seek out more education, and perhaps ignite a passion for lifelong learning and careers in science and technology.

Star Trek fans and novices alike will have a first-hand interactive experience to explore the worlds, wisdom, science, stories, cultures, characters, fashions and fantasies of the Star Trek universe. In the States, and around the world, Star Trek has become a sub-culture for many, supported by countless fan conventions and fan gatherings where many regularly gather and role-play in their favorite Star Trek characters.

“Among the main attractions of The Exhibition is the opportunity to sit in the legendary Captain’s chair where Captain Kirk and subsequently Captain Picard took command of the U.S.S. Enterprise; the opportunity to pose in front of a replica of the U.S.S. Enterprise; and one-of-a-kind displays, interactive kiosks and rare photo opportunities.”

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August-September 2015 Trek Conventions And Appearances http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/august-september-2015-trek-conventions-and-appearances/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/august-september-2015-trek-conventions-and-appearances/#comments Fri, 31 Jul 2015 18:53:51 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41248 There will be nineteen conventions, shows or appearances in August and September that will feature actors of interest to Star Trek fans.

This listing of conventions and shows features actors from all of the televised series and several of the Star Trek movies.

August begins with The Official Star Trek Convention will be held Aug. 6-9 at the Rio Suites Hotel in Las Vegas, Nevada. In attendance at The Official Star Trek Convention will be Marc Alaimo, Vaughn Armstrong, Richard Arnold, Rene Auberjonois, Robert Beltran, Casey Biggs, John Billingsley, Brannon Braga, Bobby Clark, Joan Collins, Jeffrey Combs, Denise Crosby, Olivia d’Abo, Michael Dante, James Darren, Roxanne Dawson, Nicole de Boer, John de Lancie, Elizabeth Dennehy (Commander Shelby), Chris Doohan, Michael Dorn, Doug Drexler, Aron Eisenberg, Terry Farrell, Jonathan Frakes, Bryan Fuller, Joseph Gatt, Max Grodenchik, Richard Herd, J.G. Hertzler, Jennifer Hetrick (Vash), Manu Intiraymi, Sherry Jackson, Salome Jens, Dominic Keating, Walter Koenig, Alice Krige, Cirroc Lofton, Don Marshall, Chase Masterson, Robert Duncan McNeill, Anthony Montgomery, Ronald B. Moore, Kate Mulgrew, Larry Nemecek, Adam Nimoy, Denise Okuda, Mike Okuda, Robert O’Reilly, Linda Park, Ethan Phillips, Robert Picardo, Andrew Robinson, Rod Roddenberry, David L. Ross (Lt. Galloway and Lt. Johnson), Saul Rubinek, Tim Russ, Jeri Ryan, Judson Scott (Joachim from The Wrath of Khan), William Shatner, Mark Allen Shepherd (Morn), William Morgan Sheppard, Armin Shimerman, Alexander Siddig, Marina Sirtis, Rick Sternbach, Sir Patrick Stewart, Kitty Swink, George Takei, Connor Trinneer, Karl Urban, Nana Visitor, Garrett Wang, and Michael Westmore.

Next up is Shore Leave, to be held Aug. 7-9 at the Baltimore Hunt Valley Inn in Hunt Valley, Maryland. In attendance at Shore Leave will be Daniel Davis (Professor James Moriarty).

The Steel City Con will be held Aug. 7-9 at the Monroeville Convention Center in Monroeville, Pennsylvania. In attendance at Steel City Con will be Nichelle Nichols.

The Dublin Comic Con will be held Aug. 8-9 at the Convention Centre Dublin in Dublin, Ireland. In attendance at Dublin Comic Con will be Gates McFadden.

The Windsor ComiCon will be held Aug. 15-16 at the Caesars Windsor in Windsor, Ontario, Canada. In attendance at Windsor ComiCon will be Marina Sirtis.

Crypticon Kansas City will take place Aug. 21-23 at the Howard Johnson Plaza in Kansas City, Missouri. In attendance at Crypticon Kansas City will be Sid Haig, Chris Sarandon, and Tony Todd.

Walker Stalker Con will be held Aug. 22-23 at the Westin Waterfront in Boston, Massachusetts. In attendance at Walker Stalker Con will be Denise Crosby.

The Central Coast Comic Con will take place Aug. 28-30 at the Ventura County Fairgrounds in Ventura, California. In attendance at Central Coast Comic Con will be Sid Haig (Lawgiver in Return of the Archons) and Deep Roy.

Wrapping up August will be the Bournemouth Film & Comic Con, to be held Aug. 29-30 at the Bournemouth International Centre in Bournemouth, England. In attendance at the Bournemouth Film & Comic Con will be Max Grodenchik.

September begins with Fan Expo Canada, which will be held Sept. 3-6 at the Metro Toronto Convention Centre in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. In attendance at Fan Expo Canada will be Jeffrey Combs, Malcolm McDowell, Jennifer Morrison, Kate Mulgrew, Ethan Phillips, Robert Picardo, and Jeri Ryan.

Dragon*Con will take place Sept. 4-7 at several hotels in Atlanta, Georgia. In attendance at Dragon*Con will be Terry Farrell, Jonathan Frakes, Gary Lockwood, and Paul McGillion.

Wizard World Comic Con San Jose will be held Sept. 4-6 at the San Jose Convention Center in San Jose, California. In attendance at Wizard World Comic Con San Jose will be Adrienne Barbeau.

The Alamo City Comic Con will be held Sept. 11-13 at the Henry B. Gonzalez Convention Center in San Antonio, Texas. In attendance at Alamo City Comic Con will be Olivia d’Abo and Ron Perlman.

The Wizard World Comic Con Pittsburgh will be held Sept. 11-13 at the David L. Lawrence Convention Center in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Appearing at Wizard World Comic Con Pittsburgh will be Colm Meaney and William Shatner.

RocCon will be held Sept. 11-13 at the Kodak Event Center in Rochester, New York. In attendance at RocCon will be Nichelle Nichols and Marina Sirtis.

Wizard World Comic Con Columbus will be held Sept. 18-20 at the Greater Columbus Convention Center in Columbus, Ohio. Appearing at Wizard World Comic Con Columbus will be Brent Spiner.

The Rose City Comic Con will be held Sept. 19-20 at the Oregon Convention Center in Portland, Oregon. In attendance at Rose City Comic Con will be Walter Koenig, Nichelle Nichols, and Wil Wheaton.

The Salt Lake Comic Con will be held Sept. 24-26 at the Salt Palace in Salt Lake City, Utah. Walter Koenig will be appearing at the Salt Lake Comic Con.

September wraps up with the London Comic Con, to be held Sept. 25-27 at the Western Fair District in London, Ontario, Canada. In attendance at the London Comic Con will be Nicole de Boer and Ron Perlman.

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Shatner To Pen Book On Nimoy http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/shatner-to-pen-book-on-nimoy/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/shatner-to-pen-book-on-nimoy/#comments Fri, 31 Jul 2015 18:45:58 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41245 William Shatner is planning on writing a book about his friend Leonard Nimoy.

Shatner considered Nimoy to be a brother to him.

“I’m writing a book about Leonard,” said Shatner. “I had a brother, whose life arc was so much like mine that we understood each other completely. Our age, our birth, the same types of problems in our marriages – our careers arced in the same manner.

“We had a great deal in common, Leonard and I. And thusly we were able to understand each other. I’ve lost a dear friend.”

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Star Trek Beyond Building Continues http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/star-trek-beyond-building-continues/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/star-trek-beyond-building-continues/#comments Fri, 31 Jul 2015 18:42:43 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41236 More photographs from the Star Trek Beyond set have emerged.

Five new photos show the progress made in building the set which began back in May.

STB-1

The first photo shows the bare bones of the set back in May.

STB-2

The second photo shows what appeared to be a building with some broken trees on it.

STB-3

In the third photo, it becomes clear that the second photo was not a building, but hills with broken trees. The plywood of the second photo has been covered with dirt.

STB-4

STB-5

In the last two photos, the “hills” set is being expanded.

Larger-sized photos are available at the referring site.

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Trinneer In Western Horror http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/trinneer-in-western-horror/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/trinneer-in-western-horror/#comments Thu, 30 Jul 2015 17:14:05 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41232 Fans of Connor Trinneer will be able to see the actor in a western horror movie set to release on DVD and VOD beginning August 4.

The movie is called A Good Day To Die.

In A Good Day To Die, “Baron Emerson uses his vast wealth to travel the world and hunt. He does not hunt animals, he hunts warriors. The Baron arrives at the American frontier and is looking for his next prey. An outlaw gunslinger named Chamberlin who is in jail and set to be hanged. The Baron arranges for Chamberlin to be freed so that he can hunt him like an animal in a bloody game of life and death in the Wild West.”

Trinneer portrays the hunted Chamberlin, while Robert Koroluck is the hunter Baron Emerson. Others included in A Good Day To Die include Nadia Lanfranconi, Jay Kown, and Leia Perez.

A Good Day To Die was written and directed by Rene Perez.

The movie has already made its European debut, where it was released under the title Prey For Death.

For US fans, to pre-order A Good Day To Die, which sells for $8.46, head to the link located here.

 

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Beam Me Up Scotty Figurines http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/beam-me-up-scotty-figurines/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/beam-me-up-scotty-figurines/#comments Thu, 30 Jul 2015 17:10:46 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41229 Two new original series figures feature Kirk and Spock in the process of “beaming up.”

The figures will be available from Funko beginning next month.

Each poseable figure is 3 3/4″ in height and features a beaming effect (the bottom part of each character shows this effect). “Captain James T. Kirk [and Spock have five] points of articulation and features unique accessories and the 1980s style card back design.”

The Beaming Kirk and Spock ReAction figures will ship next month. Each sells for $12.99 and can be pre-ordered here for Kirk, and here for Spock.

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UK Auction To Feature Spock Costume http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/uk-auction-to-feature-spock-costume/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/uk-auction-to-feature-spock-costume/#comments Thu, 30 Jul 2015 17:08:35 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41226 TrekUKAuction073015

An auction to be held in the UK this autumn will feature a costume worn by Leonard Nimoy.

The Prop Store and Odeon Entertainment Memorabilia Live Auction will take place September 23.

The catalog for the auction isn’t available yet, but at least two Star Trek items will be auctioned.

A costume worn by Nimoy during the second season (blue shirt and black trousers) will be up for auction, and is expected to fetch up to £70,000.

Also in the auction will be a model starship used in The Next Generation and Deep Space Nine.

Other non-Trek items of interest include a Star Wars stormtrooper helmet, Arnold Schwarzenegger‘s jacket from Terminator 3, a Lord of the Rings Witch King’s dagger, and a set of claws worn by Hugh Jackman in X2:X-Men United.

In all, four-hundred-and-fifty items will be auctioned.

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Pine To Star In Wonder Woman http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/pine-to-star-in-wonder-woman/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/pine-to-star-in-wonder-woman/#comments Wed, 29 Jul 2015 17:57:20 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41222 PineWonderWoman052815

Back in May, TrekToday reported that Chris Pine was in negotiations to star in Warner Bros. Wonder Woman; today comes word that Pine has signed on for the role.

Pine will be playing Steve Trevor, Diana Prince’s love interest.

In the Wonder Woman comics, Trevor “was an intelligence officer in the United States Army during World War II whose plane crashed on Paradise Island, the isolated homeland of the Amazons. He was nursed back to health by the Amazon princess Diana, who fell in love with him and followed him when he returned to the outside world. There she became Wonder Woman (and also his co-worker, Diana Prince).”

Pine’s deal reportedly includes sequel options.

Written by Jason Fuchs, Wonder Woman will be directed by Patty Jenkins. Pine will be starring with Gal Gadot, who will take on the role of Diana Prince.

Wonder Woman will be released June 23, 2017.

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Pegg Teases Elba Character http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/pegg-teases-elba-character/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/pegg-teases-elba-character/#comments Wed, 29 Jul 2015 17:54:46 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41218 Elba072915

Simon Pegg spoke briefly about the character that Idris Elba will be playing in Star Trek Beyond.

The character that Elba will be playing will be unique, Pegg promised.

“It’s a really interesting, complex character,” said Pegg. “We shouldn’t expect to see anything like Benedict Cumberbatch‘s creepy genius Khan from Star Trek Into Darkness in Elba’s performance, however. His performance is all his own.”

There’s a good reason that Elba’s villain is different than Cumberbatch’s. “Only because it would be a retread,” said Pegg. “What we don’t want to do is have the same kind of villain with the same motivation.”

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Old June 19 2013, 12:43 AM   #1
Photon
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(BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders

had worked, would:

A) The jems have gone ape shit and have gone through the 'anamoly' and attack everything in sight or

B) Give up and die

Both answers were speculated in Inprobable Cause/Die is Cast
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Old June 19 2013, 12:55 AM   #2
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Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders

I think if that attack had succeeded, there would still be enough Founders scattered around to keep the Jem'Hadar under control and start a new Great Link.

On the other hand, if there were no Founders left, I would guess that the Vorta/JH relationship would fall apart pretty quickly and the JH would do a lot of damage to whatever they could find before the White ran out.
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Old June 19 2013, 01:07 AM   #3
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Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders

I somehow doubt the Founders physically manufactured the White themselves. The Vorta had to have done that being they were the ones distributing it.

Tain just didn't think it through... at all. In all likelihood the Great Link, albeit smaller, would've survived between the ones actively infiltrating, the hundred and any who may be in the Dominion doing anything else.

Regardless, the Vorta would unleash the Jem'Hadar, even if they somehow were all annihilated. The Female Founder In What We Leave Behind flat out said the Jem'Hadar would fight to the death, even after she died. I somehow doubt the Vorta are just going to stop making the White just because their gods are dead. If anything quite the opposite, they'll want to avenge them.
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Old June 19 2013, 01:33 AM   #4
Sran
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Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders

Photon wrote: View Post
Both answers were speculated in Inprobable Cause/Die is Cast
It was actually speculated that they would "weaken and die." But "A" would happen before "B."

--Sran
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Old June 19 2013, 01:40 AM   #5
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Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders

R. Star wrote: View Post
I somehow doubt the Founders physically manufactured the White themselves. The Vorta had to have done that being they were the ones distributing it.
According to ST:Insurrection one of the Alpha Quadrant manufacturers of Ketracel-white was the Son'a.
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Old June 19 2013, 01:45 AM   #6
Sran
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Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders

SpHeRe31459 wrote: View Post
According to ST:Insurrection one of the Alpha Quadrant manufacturers of Ketracel-white was the Son'a.
Yes, but that has nothing to do with the attack on the Founders that happened before the Dominion even came into the Alpha Quadrant. The topic is about what might have happened had Tain's plan succeeded. The Son'a weren't even in the picture then.

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Old June 19 2013, 02:02 AM   #7
R. Star
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Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders

Sran wrote: View Post
SpHeRe31459 wrote: View Post
According to ST:Insurrection one of the Alpha Quadrant manufacturers of Ketracel-white was the Son'a.
Yes, but that has nothing to do with the attack on the Founders that happened before the Dominion even came into the Alpha Quadrant. The topic is about what might have happened had Tain's plan succeeded. The Son'a weren't even in the picture then.

--Sran
It has plenty to do with. It demonstrates the Founders have no qualms about outsourcing the manufacture of the drug along with the distribution. So, another point that the Jem'Hadar would still have a supply of white even if the Founders were eliminated.
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Old June 19 2013, 02:05 AM   #8
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Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders

R. Star wrote: View Post
It has plenty to do with. It demonstrates the Founders have no qualms about outsourcing the manufacture of the drug along with the distribution. So, another point that the Jem'Hadar would still have a supply of white even if the Founders were eliminated.
You're missing my point. The Dominion hadn't established that relationship yet. I can believe that the Founders might outsource the drug to someone else, but it's also possible that they were willing to let the Son'a do so only because their supply line to the Gamma Quadrant was cut off by the Prophets. That wouldn't have been an issue while still in the Gamma Quadrant.

--Sran
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Old June 19 2013, 02:08 AM   #9
SpHeRe31459
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Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders

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R. Star wrote: View Post
It has plenty to do with. It demonstrates the Founders have no qualms about outsourcing the manufacture of the drug along with the distribution. So, another point that the Jem'Hadar would still have a supply of white even if the Founders were eliminated.
You're missing my point. The Dominion hadn't established that relationship yet. I can believe that the Founders might outsource the drug to someone else, but it's also possible that they were willing to let the Son'a do so only because their supply line to the Gamma Quadrant was cut off by the Prophets. That wouldn't have been an issue while still in the Gamma Quadrant.

--Sran
Well we'll never really know, but I took it as a sign that the Founders probably used yet another race they control back in the Gamma Quadrant to produce it for them. Given what we know of the Dominion pretty much dominating (pun intended) whatever trade, commerce, and peoples they want in the quadrant. Also since we know the Vorta are bred to basically be the Founders right-hand-men/administrative lackies, it's not likely something the Vorta produce themselves.
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Old June 19 2013, 02:13 AM   #10
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Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders

Sran wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
It has plenty to do with. It demonstrates the Founders have no qualms about outsourcing the manufacture of the drug along with the distribution. So, another point that the Jem'Hadar would still have a supply of white even if the Founders were eliminated.
You're missing my point. The Dominion hadn't established that relationship yet. I can believe that the Founders might outsource the drug to someone else, but it's also possible that they were willing to let the Son'a do so only because their supply line to the Gamma Quadrant was cut off by the Prophets. That wouldn't have been an issue while still in the Gamma Quadrant.

--Sran
No, sir. I believe you are. It simply demonstrates behavior in regards to their super drug to control their slave warrior race. Yes we're discussing an alternate scenario, but that doesn't mean behavior patterns in regards to control of that substance aren't relevant information. If they're willing to trust the Son'a with something that important, I imagine they'd trust the Vorta or someone else with it in the Gamma Quadrant.
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Old June 19 2013, 02:13 AM   #11
Sran
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Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders

SpHeRe31459 wrote: View Post
Well we'll never really know, but I took it as a sign that the Founders probably used yet another race they control back in the Gamma Quadrant to produce it for them. Given what we know of the Dominion pretty much dominating (pun intended) whatever trade, commerce, and peoples they want in the quadrant. Also since we know the Vorta are bred to basically be the Founders right-hand-men/administrative lackies, it's not likely something the Vorta produce themselves.
I'm sure it's not, but I have a hard time believing the Founders would entrust something so important to another group given their mistrust of solids. After all, if the group were bold enough to corner the market on the drug, they would have the loyalty of the Jem'Hadar, not the Founders. Why take the risk? Weyoun himself said that the Founders' ability to control the Jem'Hadar is overstated.

--Sran
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Old June 19 2013, 02:15 AM   #12
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Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders

Sran wrote: View Post
SpHeRe31459 wrote: View Post
Well we'll never really know, but I took it as a sign that the Founders probably used yet another race they control back in the Gamma Quadrant to produce it for them. Given what we know of the Dominion pretty much dominating (pun intended) whatever trade, commerce, and peoples they want in the quadrant. Also since we know the Vorta are bred to basically be the Founders right-hand-men/administrative lackies, it's not likely something the Vorta produce themselves.
I'm sure it's not, but I have a hard time believing the Founders would entrust something so important to another group given their mistrust of solids. After all, if the group were bold enough to corner the market on the drug, they would have the loyalty of the Jem'Hadar, not the Founders. Why take the risk? Weyoun himself said that the Founders' ability to control the Jem'Hadar is overstated.

--Sran
Because a group of changelings working a menial 9-5 job in a ketracel white factory would be beneath them when they can be doing important things like oozing out.
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Old June 19 2013, 02:16 AM   #13
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Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders

So then if you go with my premise of it being made by another race, I think we get to a pretty nasty Scenario A. The Jem's rampage, they go to the subjected race making the White and take it all and possibly even kill this race in unfocused rage (which is short sighted but they wouldn't care at that point). They'd probably slaughter the Vorta for being weak fools who are not strong enough to avenge their gods' deaths, and then wreak serious havoc on the Alpha Quadrant in the name of the Founders until their White supplies finally ran out.
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Old June 19 2013, 02:17 AM   #14
SpHeRe31459
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Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders

R. Star wrote: View Post
Sran wrote: View Post
SpHeRe31459 wrote: View Post
Well we'll never really know, but I took it as a sign that the Founders probably used yet another race they control back in the Gamma Quadrant to produce it for them. Given what we know of the Dominion pretty much dominating (pun intended) whatever trade, commerce, and peoples they want in the quadrant. Also since we know the Vorta are bred to basically be the Founders right-hand-men/administrative lackies, it's not likely something the Vorta produce themselves.
I'm sure it's not, but I have a hard time believing the Founders would entrust something so important to another group given their mistrust of solids. After all, if the group were bold enough to corner the market on the drug, they would have the loyalty of the Jem'Hadar, not the Founders. Why take the risk? Weyoun himself said that the Founders' ability to control the Jem'Hadar is overstated.

--Sran
Because a group of changelings working a menial 9-5 job in a ketracel white factory would be beneath them when they can be doing important things like oozing out.
Exactly, the Founders are nothing if not elitist.
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Old June 19 2013, 02:17 AM   #15
Sran
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Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders

R. Star wrote: View Post
No, sir. I believe you are. It simply demonstrates behavior in regards to their super drug to control their slave warrior race. Yes we're discussing an alternate scenario, but that doesn't mean behavior patterns in regards to control of that substance aren't relevant information. If they're willing to trust the Son'a with something that important, I imagine they'd trust the Vorta or someone else with it in the Gamma Quadrant.
That's prescisely my point. You can't assume that a given pattern of behavior will apply under completely different circumstances. Consider what we know about the Founders. They don't trust solids, any solids. Why would they willingly turn over control of drug production to the Vorta?

Yes, they were willing to allow the Son'a to assist them in the Alpha Quadrant, but they had no other means of manufacturing the drug after being cut off from the wormhole. Those circumstances were highly unusual.

Recall that Weyoun hounded Dukat endelessly at the beginning of the war becasue he was concerned about the supply of drug available for the Jem'Hadar. Clearly, they hadn't found another means of making the drug. The Son'a were a last resort, not a luxury.

--Sran
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