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Old June 18 2013, 03:09 PM   #16
E-DUB
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Re: Should Chakotay have been more of a "bad ass"

Yes.

And on "Tapestry", I always thought that it wasn't credible that Picard ever would have been that kind of officer, he might have been the guy who was stuck at HQ as some admiral's gopher.
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Old June 18 2013, 03:13 PM   #17
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Re: Should Chakotay have been more of a "bad ass"

Really he'd probably be a lieutenant commander or commander by that time and head of "Astrophysics" or whatever sub department he's in. He'd still be reporting to someone else, probably Data or an unnamed Chief Science officer, even if he nominally outranked them.
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Old June 18 2013, 03:33 PM   #18
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Re: Should Chakotay have been more of a "bad ass"

Chakotay definitely should have been the Wolverine to Janeway's Cyclops.
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Old June 18 2013, 04:45 PM   #19
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Re: Should Chakotay have been more of a "bad ass"

It would've worked out better if Janeway was younger, maybe the Science Officer who takes over when the original Captain and XO are killed off. Chakotay would be a mentor figure to her instead.
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Old June 18 2013, 05:08 PM   #20
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Re: Should Chakotay have been more of a "bad ass"

Yeah, it's also a natural corner. Picard would choose the lives of his family (new or not) over career if he had a conscious choice.
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Old June 18 2013, 05:12 PM   #21
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Re: Should Chakotay have been more of a "bad ass"

R. Star wrote: View Post
Really he'd probably be a lieutenant commander or commander by that time and head of "Astrophysics" or whatever sub department he's in. He'd still be reporting to someone else, probably Data or an unnamed Chief Science officer, even if he nominally outranked them.
OTOH, Starfleet not having an "up and out" system like the military makes sense too. Academia often promotes younger more ambitious folk over older but more experienced ones. Picard as the guy who does math nobody likes could just be his thing.

It's also possible this Picard refused promotion (or didn't pursue it) until he'd been replaced by "Real" Picard. Then, to Deana and Riker, it comes off like a midlife crisis than actual ambition.
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Old June 18 2013, 05:41 PM   #22
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Re: Should Chakotay have been more of a "bad ass"

No! No! And no again!

Chakotay was good as he was.

In fact, we do have two possibilities:

1. A Maquis Commander who realize that the best chance for him and his Maquis fellows to get home is to join Voyager, play by the rules and have a decent chance to come home in the future.

2. A whiny crybaby who ruins all possibilities for the Maquis on the ship to have a possibility to come home and maybe be paroled when they do arrive home.

We can also compare the both crews on Voyager with the horrible mix of people on the starship Destiny in Stargate Universe:

Voyager: Two crews led by a smart Starfleet Captain and a smart Maquis commander who realized that cooperation between the crews is the only way to survive and get home.

Destiny: Two crews, the military and the civilians who spent most of their time arguing, fighting, manipulating and whining, led by persons who were hardly capable of commanding and steering a tricycle.

No surprise that Voyager managed to get home and Destiny didn't.
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Old June 18 2013, 07:11 PM   #23
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Re: Should Chakotay have been more of a "bad ass"

The Mirrorball Man wrote: View Post
Chakotay definitely should have been the Wolverine to Janeway's Cyclops.
It's not shown in the series nor said in any books, but Janeway and Chakotay had to have done it a few times. IMO -
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Old June 18 2013, 11:50 PM   #24
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Re: Should Chakotay have been more of a "bad ass"

Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
I see no reason not to see why Chakotay couldn't have risen to Commander and/or higher. He was a quiet, soft-spoken type but he was apparently very effective as a guerilla warrior against the Cardassians.
Exactly. Promotions aren't about racking up style points. Promotions come about by demonstrating a strong work ethic and good team work skills, in addition to showing initiative. They have nothing to do how bland a person is.

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Old June 19 2013, 12:28 AM   #25
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Re: Should Chakotay have been more of a "bad ass"

Lynx wrote: View Post
No! No! And no again!

Chakotay was good as he was.

In fact, we do have two possibilities:

1. A Maquis Commander who realize that the best chance for him and his Maquis fellows to get home is to join Voyager, play by the rules and have a decent chance to come home in the future.

2. A whiny crybaby who ruins all possibilities for the Maquis on the ship to have a possibility to come home and maybe be paroled when they do arrive home.

We can also compare the both crews on Voyager with the horrible mix of people on the starship Destiny in Stargate Universe:

Voyager: Two crews led by a smart Starfleet Captain and a smart Maquis commander who realized that cooperation between the crews is the only way to survive and get home.

Destiny: Two crews, the military and the civilians who spent most of their time arguing, fighting, manipulating and whining, led by persons who were hardly capable of commanding and steering a tricycle.

No surprise that Voyager managed to get home and Destiny didn't.
Complete harmony and complete pointless friction are not the only two options. For instance, I liked the way Chakotay talked Janeway into making B'elana chief engineer. DS9 pulled it off with Sisko and Kira and Voyager arguably had more natural conflicts they could have worked with. In Learning Curve, Chakotay could have been a mediator for his crew rather than just stupidly punching someone and saying "THAT'S THE MAQUIS WAY OF DOING THINGS! Now you spend the next 70 years doing whatever Janeway says period." He could have brokered an arrangement where the Maquis crew had to do the training but got leeway on the dress code. Chakotay could have also been taking the position more often that Starfleet rules don't apply dogmatically when you're on your own in the delta quadrant. They abandoned that entire narrative after Alliances because one group of people were murdering jerks.

If they had found the balance where Chakotay was keeping his crew under control but also advocating their position to Janeway he could have been a much better character.
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Old June 19 2013, 09:17 PM   #26
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Re: Should Chakotay have been more of a "bad ass"

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
No! No! And no again!

Chakotay was good as he was.

In fact, we do have two possibilities:

1. A Maquis Commander who realize that the best chance for him and his Maquis fellows to get home is to join Voyager, play by the rules and have a decent chance to come home in the future.

2. A whiny crybaby who ruins all possibilities for the Maquis on the ship to have a possibility to come home and maybe be paroled when they do arrive home.

We can also compare the both crews on Voyager with the horrible mix of people on the starship Destiny in Stargate Universe:

Voyager: Two crews led by a smart Starfleet Captain and a smart Maquis commander who realized that cooperation between the crews is the only way to survive and get home.

Destiny: Two crews, the military and the civilians who spent most of their time arguing, fighting, manipulating and whining, led by persons who were hardly capable of commanding and steering a tricycle.

No surprise that Voyager managed to get home and Destiny didn't.
Complete harmony and complete pointless friction are not the only two options. For instance, I liked the way Chakotay talked Janeway into making B'elana chief engineer. DS9 pulled it off with Sisko and Kira and Voyager arguably had more natural conflicts they could have worked with. In Learning Curve, Chakotay could have been a mediator for his crew rather than just stupidly punching someone and saying "THAT'S THE MAQUIS WAY OF DOING THINGS! Now you spend the next 70 years doing whatever Janeway says period." He could have brokered an arrangement where the Maquis crew had to do the training but got leeway on the dress code. Chakotay could have also been taking the position more often that Starfleet rules don't apply dogmatically when you're on your own in the delta quadrant. They abandoned that entire narrative after Alliances because one group of people were murdering jerks.

If they had found the balance where Chakotay was keeping his crew under control but also advocating their position to Janeway he could have been a much better character.
I agree with your points here.
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Old June 20 2013, 12:19 AM   #27
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Re: Should Chakotay have been more of a "bad ass"

Lynx wrote: View Post

Voyager: Two crews led by a smart Starfleet Captain and a smart Maquis commander who realized that cooperation between the crews is the only way to survive and get home.

Destiny: Two crews, the military and the civilians who spent most of their time arguing, fighting, manipulating and whining, led by persons who were hardly capable of commanding and steering a tricycle.

No surprise that Voyager managed to get home and Destiny didn't.
Cancellation may have had something to do with this..

And anyway, as you say, the Destiny crew is unpleasant. Let them rot out there in space.
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Old June 20 2013, 08:40 AM   #28
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Re: Should Chakotay have been more of a "bad ass"

teacake wrote: View Post
... as you say, the Destiny crew is unpleasant. Let them rot out there in space.
Things don't rot when left in the freezer.

I thought that Chakotay would have been better employed as Janeway's moral compass on the show, problem there is whenever he attempted to do this, Janeway locked him in his quarters. Instead of having him as a bad ass, have him be the ship's (excuse me please) "good ass."


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Old June 20 2013, 08:52 AM   #29
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Re: Should Chakotay have been more of a "bad ass"

But don't we end up wanting to smack the moral compass?
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Old June 20 2013, 04:27 PM   #30
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Re: Should Chakotay have been more of a "bad ass"

T'Girl wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
... as you say, the Destiny crew is unpleasant. Let them rot out there in space.
Things don't rot when left in the freezer.
Off topic, but I enjoyed Stargate: Universe. Yes, the characters were annoying in the beginning, but they had all started to work together and get along by the end of season 2. Also, had Universe been successful and lasted the Syfy 5 (Syfy tends to give shows 5 seasons, even if season 5 is short), there would have been more Sg-1 films and an Atlantis film.
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