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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old June 16 2013, 11:10 PM   #76
Mysterion
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Re: Engineering's curved hallways

^^^
And you'd still have to contend with the Hangar Deck that is oriented the same direction as the primary hull. While it might solve the curved hallway problem, it would introduce a lot of other totally unnecessary logistical problems for the crew and Starfleet enginners in general.
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Old June 17 2013, 02:44 AM   #77
CaptainDave1701
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Re: Engineering's curved hallways

BillJ wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post

If it ain't broken, don't fix or alter it!

Bob
If you guys put the effort into solving the worlds problems that you put into detailing a fifty-year old fictional spaceship, the world would be a much better place.
What do you mean fictional?
You mean to tell me it ain't real?
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Old June 17 2013, 07:44 AM   #78
Mario de Monti
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Re: Engineering's curved hallways

jayrath wrote: View Post
I started this thread, but even I can't read through the umpty-nine comments and makes sense of all the (many excellent) comments. One thought I have -- and it very well may have been brought up by others, and even by myself, but I can't read it all:

What if the secondary hull is 90 degrees off from the primary hull? That is, it's basically a tapering tube. It could be filled with curved hallways that -- to the viewer -- appear to be arranged vertically rather than horizontally, stacked from right to left, tapering toward the shuttle bay. Think of it as a deck of cards stacked on end, from right to left, rather than top to bottom.

All it would take is flipping the gravity. There is no "up" or "down" in space anyway -- it's all artificial. Turbolifts could easily flip 90 degrees before arriving in the secondary hull, and flip again when reaching the shuttle bay (which obviously shares the viewer's "up" and "down").

Presto, all curved hallways in the secondary hull would then be easily explained.
Interesting idea. But I think you´d have a very hard time making sense of the rows of windows in the secondary hull, which are clearly arranged horizontally.
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Old June 17 2013, 09:10 PM   #79
BorgusFrat
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Re: Engineering's curved hallways

Not to pick a nit, and I agree that I think Jeffries knew what he was doing but just had to do it on a schedule that's not really understandable to us and would seem unbearable today (tons of post production sound work necessary, flimsy sets, ridiculous limited budget because of Lucy and Desi, everything including video editing being analog or "longhand" back in the day, and only 6 days to do it all!). So when you think about it, isn't this ...

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
" ... then designing the Enterprise’s interiors is up for grabs for everybody and a playground for a multitude of different interpretations."
... one of the most neat and interesting aspects of all of this?!?!

In other words, the Enterprise was fleshed out really well considering the time schedules they all worked under, but still to this day there's not really any ONE answer to exactly how its laid out, so IMHO it's really cool that everyone can participate in having their own interpretation of it. I can't stand Dr. Who but in some ways you could say the Enterprise is like a TARDIS- - you can never be sure how big it is or where everything really goes. The confusion about where everything 'fits" actually contributes to including more fans and more ideas and more creativity and on and on and on ...

It's like a benevalent screw-up that gives us more stuff to talk about for almost 50 years now!!!

Mario de Monti wrote: View Post
Interesting idea. But I think you´d have a very hard time making sense of the rows of windows in the secondary hull, which are clearly arranged horizontally.
Hi Mario. Again, welcome to the BBS. Your ideas are sensible. I said basically the same thing in the "Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited" thread! It doesn't make sense ... UNLESS you say, ironically like Franz sort of did, that all those lights aren't really 'windows' at all, but environmental system reactors (or whatever he called them --I forget exactly at the moment). That way NONE of the "windows' have to mean ANYTHING to the layout of the ship!

Cool beans.
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Old June 18 2013, 05:41 AM   #80
Maurice
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Re: Engineering's curved hallways

BorgusFrat wrote: View Post
Not to pick a nit, and I agree that I think Jeffries knew what he was doing but just had to do it on a schedule that's not really understandable to us and would seem unbearable today (tons of post production sound work necessary, flimsy sets, ridiculous limited budget because of Lucy and Desi, everything including video editing being analog or "longhand" back in the day, and only 6 days to do it all!). So when you think about it, isn't this ...
Just to be clear, Desi was long gone, the editing was film and not video, and episodes were shot in six days, not completed.
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Old June 18 2013, 08:03 AM   #81
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Re: Engineering's curved hallways

Mario de Monti wrote: View Post
Interesting idea. But I think you´d have a very hard time making sense of the rows of windows in the secondary hull, which are clearly arranged horizontally.
The windows could be narrow floor to ceiling windows, like the one in Picard's ready room.





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Old June 18 2013, 09:12 AM   #82
Mario de Monti
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Re: Engineering's curved hallways

I´m not really sure, if you´re serious about this approach. If you are, then here´s why I think this doesn´t make sense:

1. The windows aren´t evenly spaced. Meaning that deck heights would vary greatly, sometimes even sub-decks with a meter or so in height would be necessary to account for the window placement.

2. In-universe I don´t see the purpose to flip the corridor alignment as compared to the saucer, espcially since the hangar deck has the same orientation as the decks in the saucer.

3. Production-wise I think it´s safe to assume that if they had intended the decks to be arranged this way, they would also have flipped the windows by 90° to emphasize this.

4. As I understand it, the only reason for this approach is to account for circular corridors in the engineering hull. Robert Comsol has shown in his thread, that it is perfectly possible to include such corridors there without flipping the deck orientation.

So IMHO there really is no justification for this approach. But like I said, don´t know how serious you were.

Mario
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Old June 18 2013, 09:36 AM   #83
Mario de Monti
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Re: Engineering's curved hallways

BorgusFrat wrote: View Post

Mario de Monti wrote: View Post
Interesting idea. But I think you´d have a very hard time making sense of the rows of windows in the secondary hull, which are clearly arranged horizontally.
Hi Mario. Again, welcome to the BBS. Your ideas are sensible. I said basically the same thing in the "Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited" thread! It doesn't make sense ... UNLESS you say, ironically like Franz sort of did, that all those lights aren't really 'windows' at all, but environmental system reactors (or whatever he called them --I forget exactly at the moment). That way NONE of the "windows' have to mean ANYTHING to the layout of the ship!

Cool beans.
Thanks

I´m pretty sure that when the filming model was built, they had windows in mind. Anything else they would probably have designed in such a way to make sure everyone knows that it´s NOT windows, IMHO.
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Old June 18 2013, 09:51 AM   #84
Mario de Monti
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Re: Engineering's curved hallways

BorgusFrat wrote: View Post

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
" ... then designing the Enterprise’s interiors is up for grabs for everybody and a playground for a multitude of different interpretations."
... one of the most neat and interesting aspects of all of this?!?!

In other words, the Enterprise was fleshed out really well considering the time schedules they all worked under, but still to this day there's not really any ONE answer to exactly how its laid out, so IMHO it's really cool that everyone can participate in having their own interpretation of it. I can't stand Dr. Who but in some ways you could say the Enterprise is like a TARDIS- - you can never be sure how big it is or where everything really goes. The confusion about where everything 'fits" actually contributes to including more fans and more ideas and more creativity and on and on and on ...

It's like a benevalent screw-up that gives us more stuff to talk about for almost 50 years now!!!
The thing is, that AFAIK no one really, I mean REALLY, tried to find this ONE answer before. No one has made the effort to actually look at all the episodes and try to piece together all the visual (and audio) information into a coherent whole. When you look at Robert Comsol´s WIP thread and the solutions he came up with so far, it certainly looks like there actually could be ONE answer. If not for every single room on the ship, then probably for a general layout of all the decks as well as the placement of the more prominent rooms. And that would be a LOT closer, than anyone ever got to the "real" layout of the Enterprise as seen on screen.
Don´t get me wrong, I have no problem with fans "filling" the ship as they see fit (as FJ did) and have fun that way. But that does not mean, there CAN´T be a (close to) definitive answer

Mario
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Old June 18 2013, 12:18 PM   #85
Robert Comsol
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Re: Engineering's curved hallways

^^

BorgusFrat wrote: View Post
But where does it end?!?!?

For the love of ptomaine, are you also going to make sure the walls of the corridors actually bend and move in your plans when someone slams into them ... or are you going to make every single curved corridor have exactly the same radius and degree of arc? After all, that's all we saw onscreen! The same corridor at the same curvature over and over and over again. If you're going to say that there are other corridors on other parts of the saucer that are at different curvatures, then that's not being true to the onscreen evidence. That's making a bigger pie than we were shown
This is exactly the kind of feedback I'd seriously love to see more in my deck plan thread, critical questions that deserve answers.

We all do know () that we are looking at an ambitioned 1960's TV production with severe budget restraints requiring our imagination to fill in some gaps or blanks, and nobody expected that all these production details would be examined by later generations with a magnifying glass as we do today.

Therefore we could / should regard a number of details with a grain of salt, but the (philosophical) question is, indeed, where you draw the line. Obviously, as in my thread this discussion just came up, there appears to be a difference in opinion between blssdwlf and myself.

My approach tries to satisfy what the interested TOS viewer expects to "find" on these deck plans (without the use of magnifying glasses or rulers and going into rationalization "overdrive") but also what a hardcore TOS fan expects to see.

IMHO, the physical studio set and its rooms had to present not only the main, inner corridor but also outer corridors with a different radius and outer rooms (I believe that the reception room in "Journey to Babel" was close to the three circular bow windows which we didn't see because of budget restraints - and therefore have to rely on our imagination but also disregard for that moment the actual curvature of the briefing room set...).

The transition from "Kirk's corridor" at the beginning of "Journey to Babel" to a more innermost one is what I regard as proof for the aforementioned theory.

But, of course, if you are allowed to extend the radius of the studio corridor why should it be forbidden to reduce it to place a narrower circular corridor into the engineering hull and wrap it around the Engineering Core?
Essentially, that's what I did and the great yellow circle marking at the bottom of the engineering hull provided the perfect excuse.

While we hardcore fans do know the actual radius of the Studio set and can find fault with this approach, the "interested" viewer would most likely not notice.

All he expects to see is a circular corridor where - as the characters proceed through it - the doors in the background eventually disappear from sight, regardless of the actual corridor configuration.

I really dislike what I had to do here, but the only other option was assuming a length of the Enterprise exceeding 1,048 or 1,080' and that's a price I wasn't willing to pay for (what I should not have done in the drafts was to fill the corridor walls around the E-Core with black paint, because now it sticks out like a sore thumb. I assume the hard job of my friend Andy and myself will be to design the blank and unseen areas surrounding the core in a fashion that it will hopefully make the whole thing look more believable and better).

Well, at least in the saucer deck plans I try to slavishly adhere to accomodate all "medical ward" corridors seen onscreen with their studio set compliant actual radius on Decks 5 thru 7.

Bob
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Old June 18 2013, 01:48 PM   #86
blssdwlf
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Re: Engineering's curved hallways

Something else to think about is that if you watch the episodes the film makers showed only portions or small bits of the curved corridor. On occasions you do have the full corridor in view but the other times there isn't enough visual information to derive the curvature. Or if there is some information you can get only a slight angle but not as curvy as the full set since the walls are straight segments that only turn at the connecting seams. It only becomes problematic (IMHO) when all one can think about is the S1 or S2 blueprint whenever a portion of the corridor is shown and let that blueprint knowledge influence how the rest of the hallway should look.
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Old June 18 2013, 07:13 PM   #87
BorgusFrat
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Re: Engineering's curved hallways

Maurice wrote: View Post
Just to be clear, Desi was long gone, the editing was film and not video, and episodes were shot in six days, not completed.
Ha, thanks! Yes, of course I know it was film on the series, I routinely use video for film even though I should technically write "film'. Probably because of growing up with videotapes of things that were all "films". I also always think about the fact that Desi came back to Desilu at around that time, even though he was doing his own thing without Lucy -- just in the same physical location.

My point stands about the production schedule though-- no matter what fine point you want to put on it, the whole post-production process is much faster and less labor intensive for shows today.
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Old June 18 2013, 07:21 PM   #88
BorgusFrat
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Re: Engineering's curved hallways

Mario de Monti wrote: View Post
I´m pretty sure that when the filming model was built, they had windows in mind. Anything else they would probably have designed in such a way to make sure everyone knows that it´s NOT windows, IMHO.
Oh I know. I was just pointing out another way that COULD make it maybe work. When you think about it anyway, actual "windows" are kind of silly. I mean, unless the hallway or room the person is in is totally dark you're not going to see much of anything --not even any stars, really. They're too far away and there's too much ambeint light around. Not to mention the light being given off by the ship on the outside -- the glow of the engines, the running lights, the light from other "windows", even the ships shields or screens lighting up the hull a little ... all those things would make it next to impossible to see any stars at all through a window like those that are shown. Though maybe they could look out and see a planet they were orbiting, I guess. But it just seems a lot easier to use big viewscreens and just ask the computer to show you a certain view outside the ship. That way you'd actually see far more detail-- AND some stars!
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Old June 18 2013, 11:19 PM   #89
Robert Comsol
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Re: Engineering's curved hallways

BorgusFrat wrote: View Post
When you think about it anyway, actual "windows" are kind of silly.
There are many correct observations in your post, but I can't possibly see why the idea of windows is silly.

I for one would rather book a cruise on a starship with windows than to feel boxed into a windowless submarine (but apparently many Trekkers wouldn't mind ).

In my avatar I used a scene from the alternate edit of WNM showing us a long corridor which I believe to run along the row of horizontal windows of the engineering hull.

During daytime and work shifts the environmental engineers' job is not to stargaze but to make sure artificial gravity etc. works flawlessly.

During nighttime simulation it's a different subject and Pike's Enterprise was probably featured during that time of day in "The Cage", with most illumination off, so you'd get a great opportunity to stargaze which would still constitute a real thing (just as real food) in contrast to the virtual experience on a viewscreen.

That's also one of the reasons why I dislike the TOS-R "Christmas Tree" illumination of the CGI model with all corridors fully lit (including the "tail pipe socket" cover hatch near the starboard nacelle pylon that had mysteriously transformed into a window...).

Bob
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Old June 19 2013, 12:16 AM   #90
scotpens
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Re: Engineering's curved hallways

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Mario de Monti wrote: View Post
Interesting idea. But I think you´d have a very hard time making sense of the rows of windows in the secondary hull, which are clearly arranged horizontally.
The windows could be narrow floor to ceiling windows, like the one in Picard's ready room.
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