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Old June 18 2013, 04:16 AM   #31
thestrangequark
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Re: Have You Ever Changed Your Mind...

teacake wrote: View Post
jayceee wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
What would be an example of someone being misleading or wrong that you wouldn't confront? I'm missing something here because there are certainly ways to tell someone they are incorrect without making it about confronting them.
Every now and then, I have friends who attempt to talk me into investing in a new business, some real estate, other investments, etc ...

When I was younger, I would have wasted their time by challenging their business plan, estimated numbers, etc ... by firing off repeated volleys of hard questions. In the past, I generally saw it as the equivalent of an intellectual sparring match or "bloodsport". (In the end after all the sparring, I would still say no to their requests).

Today, I will just let them know right away that I am not interested at all. I generally now stop myself from entering a "Sheldon Cooper" state of mind, and cut to the chase immediately.
I still troll them if it's Amway. But otherwise, I get what you're saying. Better things to do with time.
On the flip side, have you ever considered the problem may not be with them, but with your approach? People don't like being wrong, even when they are wrong, and they don't generally like confrontation, especially when what you're asking them to confront is reality. It's a quirk of psychology that attacking someone's firmly held beliefs or ideas, even with a solid argument, good evidence, and the absolute truth on your side, will only serve to reinforce their wrong beliefs. If you want to convince someone, you need to feed the evidence and the arguments to them subtly. You need to get them curious, and get them thinking, and allow them to come to the conclusion themselves so they won't have to suffer defeat. It's hard, but I managed it once! And she was over thirty.
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Old June 18 2013, 04:22 AM   #32
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Re: Have You Ever Changed Your Mind...

teacake wrote: View Post
I still troll them if it's Amway.
With MLM types many years ago, the first thing I would say is to send me a copy of their federal tax returns from the previous five years. Everyone one of them said no. (Obviously). In response I said I wasn't interested at all.

Today, I just tell them that I am not interested at all from the very start. I also immediately say right away that this will never be a topic of discussion again with me. (So far, they have not ever asked me again).
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Old June 18 2013, 04:34 AM   #33
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Re: Have You Ever Changed Your Mind...

Yes I always ask for an exact figure for how much they made, or when it was friends newly sucked I would tell them to ask their upline indoctrinator to tell them how much they actually made in the last year. I've said if they can tell me this I will listen to their spiel. I've never had to listen to it. This was almost a monthly event for me years ago but I think the MLM thing has run itself into the ground these days.
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Old June 18 2013, 04:37 AM   #34
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Re: Have You Ever Changed Your Mind...

^ "Friends newly sucked" and "upline indoctrinator". I'm not sure which of those phrases wins more internets, but they're right up there.
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Old June 18 2013, 04:37 AM   #35
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Re: Have You Ever Changed Your Mind...

thestrangequark wrote: View Post
On the flip side, have you ever considered the problem may not be with them, but with your approach? People don't like being wrong, even when they are wrong, and they don't generally like confrontation, especially when what you're asking them to confront is reality. It's a quirk of psychology that attacking someone's firmly held beliefs or ideas, even with a solid argument, good evidence, and the absolute truth on your side, will only serve to reinforce their wrong beliefs. If you want to convince someone, you need to feed the evidence and the arguments to them subtly. You need to get them curious, and get them thinking, and allow them to come to the conclusion themselves so they won't have to suffer defeat. It's hard, but I managed it once! And she was over thirty.
When I was younger, my intentions were rarely to ever change people's minds. My underlying intention was to get under the person's skin.
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Old June 18 2013, 04:41 AM   #36
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Re: Have You Ever Changed Your Mind...

J. Allen wrote: View Post
Wow! It's wonderful to see someone have such similar changes to my own. When I became more honest (as you put it) with myself, I thought for all the world that I was either stepping into a new world of opportunity, or right off a cliff. I couldn't decide, and I certainly didn't know what to expect at the time. Just as an aside, I also read "Conversations with God," though at the time, I was in ultra-fundamentalist mode, so I say the book as heretical.

Anyhoo, I am glad you have emerged a stronger person, one who is more honest with yourself. It's a great feeling. It's like removing an anvil off your chest. I hope you don't mind a hug, because you're getting one.

[HUG]

Also, to tsq, what a good idea for a thread!
Thank you for the hug. A hug back to you! It is a good idea for a thread. I shared more with that open-ended question than I ever thought I would share online. It's nice that it was well-received, not ridiculed.
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Old June 18 2013, 04:42 AM   #37
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Re: Have You Ever Changed Your Mind...

My relationship with Christ is one thing I will NOT change. Except to make it better.
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Last edited by Mr. Laser Beam; June 18 2013 at 05:03 AM.
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Old June 18 2013, 04:58 AM   #38
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Re: Have You Ever Changed Your Mind...

jayceee wrote: View Post
thestrangequark wrote: View Post
On the flip side, have you ever considered the problem may not be with them, but with your approach? People don't like being wrong, even when they are wrong, and they don't generally like confrontation, especially when what you're asking them to confront is reality. It's a quirk of psychology that attacking someone's firmly held beliefs or ideas, even with a solid argument, good evidence, and the absolute truth on your side, will only serve to reinforce their wrong beliefs. If you want to convince someone, you need to feed the evidence and the arguments to them subtly. You need to get them curious, and get them thinking, and allow them to come to the conclusion themselves so they won't have to suffer defeat. It's hard, but I managed it once! And she was over thirty.
When I was younger, my intentions were rarely to ever change people's minds. My underlying intention was to get under the person's skin.
Then your conclusion that people over thirty do not change their minds is based on false premis!

I'm happy people are finding the thread valuable, I know I'm learning a lot by reading it.
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Old June 18 2013, 05:13 AM   #39
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Re: Have You Ever Changed Your Mind...

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
J. Allen wrote: View Post
Wow! It's wonderful to see someone have such similar changes to my own. When I became more honest (as you put it) with myself, I thought for all the world that I was either stepping into a new world of opportunity, or right off a cliff. I couldn't decide, and I certainly didn't know what to expect at the time. Just as an aside, I also read "Conversations with God," though at the time, I was in ultra-fundamentalist mode, so I say the book as heretical.

Anyhoo, I am glad you have emerged a stronger person, one who is more honest with yourself. It's a great feeling. It's like removing an anvil off your chest. I hope you don't mind a hug, because you're getting one.

[HUG]

Also, to tsq, what a good idea for a thread!
Thank you for the hug. A hug back to you! It is a good idea for a thread. I shared more with that open-ended question than I ever thought I would share online. It's nice that it was well-received, not ridiculed.
I know what you mean. I don't talk to my extended family very much, about anything (they like to argue), but here I'll open up to just about anything!

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My relationship with Christ is one thing I will NOT change. Except to make it better.
Ours was fine for a while, but then he said that he needed some space, so I gave him the universe. Messiahs love universes.
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Old June 18 2013, 05:13 AM   #40
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Re: Have You Ever Changed Your Mind...

People change their minds over 30 all the time. It's called a midlife crisis.
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Old June 18 2013, 05:21 AM   #41
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Re: Have You Ever Changed Your Mind...

thestrangequark wrote: View Post
Then your conclusion that people over thirty do not change their minds is based on false premis!
There's a difference between "many" and "for all".

Over the decades I've had a number of offline intellectual sparring "partners", where we would argue various issues from different perspectives. In these heated discussions, we mutually agree to not dig in our heels too much. But as we got older, I've found that it was harder to convince the other person of a particular point, regardless of the supporting/dissenting evidence.

Whether consciously or unconsciously, we find ourselves digging in our heels more and more as we got older, than when we were younger. We frequently joke that our minds are "calcifying".
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Old June 18 2013, 05:23 AM   #42
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Re: Have You Ever Changed Your Mind...

I'm 33, and I live by the axiom, "adapt or die."
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Old June 18 2013, 05:27 AM   #43
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Re: Have You Ever Changed Your Mind...

jayceee wrote: View Post
Whether consciously or unconsciously, we find ourselves digging in our heels more and more as we got older, than when we were younger. We frequently joke that our minds are "calcifying".
I'm sure Red Green has a lot to say about that.
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Old June 18 2013, 05:35 AM   #44
thestrangequark
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Re: Have You Ever Changed Your Mind...

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Then your conclusion that people over thirty do not change their minds is based on false premis!
There's a difference between "many" and "for all".

Over the decades I've had a number of offline intellectual sparring "partners", where we would argue various issues from different perspectives. In these heated discussions, we mutually agree to not dig in our heels too much. But as we got older, I've found that it was harder to convince the other person of a particular point, regardless of the supporting/dissenting evidence.

Whether consciously or unconsciously, we find ourselves digging in our heels more and more as we got older, than when we were younger. We frequently joke that our minds are "calcifying".
Oh, you misunderstood. I never said your conclusion was wrong. Just that it was based on a false premis. You just can't make the argument that it is pointless to waste one's time trying to change someone's mind and later claim that you were never trying to change his mind in the first place!

I actually agree...as people get older they can have a tendency to become set in their ways.
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Old June 18 2013, 06:53 AM   #45
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Re: Have You Ever Changed Your Mind...

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You just can't make the argument that it is pointless to waste one's time trying to change someone's mind and later claim that you were never trying to change his mind in the first place!
There is a difference between "never" and "rarely".

The getting under a person's skin was my main priority. (When I was a young adult, I found that it was relatively easy to get under the skin of many of my peers).

The other person changing their mind was just a "bonus" if it ever happened, and largely secondary (or even tertiary). Past cases I can recall where the other person indeed changed their mind due to my argument, typically involved showing that there were technical problems in the other person's argument, which were resolved through a mathematical calculation (or proof) I did. This sort of change of mind, happened a lot more frequently when I was younger.

As we got older, I've found that even rigorous mathematical arguments and/or precise experimental data, will not change the other person's mind as easily. This "rising of the bar" for evidence, seems to make it harder to get under the other person's skin and harder to get them to change their mind.

For many people I've known for decades, I've found that it gets harder to get under someone's skin as they got older. (Even people I knew who were hotheads with short fuses when they were younger). As I got older, I've found that attempting to get under somebody's skin has been resembling more and more like an exercise in futility too. (Not just changing other people's minds).

Last edited by jayceee; June 18 2013 at 12:32 PM.
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