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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Doctor Who

Doctor Who "Bigger on the inside..."

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Old June 17 2013, 10:10 PM   #91
Candlelight
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Re: Rumors of a Special Surprise for the Anniversary

Brendan Moody wrote: View Post
...and two each from "The Invasion," "The Ice Warriors," and "The Wheel in Space"
The Wheel in Space has four missing episodes. If the serial is simply missing from the collection I'd believe it, but why is there a partial serial being retained...?
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Old June 17 2013, 10:28 PM   #92
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Re: Rumors of a Special Surprise for the Anniversary

Rich Johnston signed onto the missing episodes forum and had this to say:

I'm not saying I got conned at all. I'm just passing on the beliefs of some I've been able to talk this weekend. I tried to represent the diversity of informed opinion on this.

And no, I am not a Doctor Who insider. I have one written Doctor Who comic to my name. I did run with Matt Smith as the eleventh Doctor (twelfth now I suppose) early - but only after having run with Paterson Joseph for months.

Very occasionally people have told me things. But pretty much everyone on this board has the right to call themselves a Doctor Who insider more than me.

But I think I have the right to report on rumours when they are being discussed and debated at the highest levels - as long as that's how I present them, and don't try and pretend that they are facts. On every stage I've tried to show my working out, as it were.

And the 90 episodes was something I kept coming across, consistent among people I talked to about this. Yes, it sounded ridiculous. But that's what was being said. And that is what I'm reporting on.
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Old June 17 2013, 11:06 PM   #93
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Re: Rumors of a Special Surprise for the Anniversary

But I think I have the right to report on rumours when they are being discussed and debated at the highest levels - as long as that's how I present them, and don't try and pretend that they are facts. On every stage I've tried to show my working out, as it were.
The problem with that attitude, though, is that just reporting them at all gives them an air of credibility. There was a time when one of the basic standards of good journalism was that you didn't report anything until you had at least two reliable sources for it, that rumors and hearsay were not news and thus didn't deserve to be treated as news. The problem with the 24-hour news cycle and the Internet is that it creates incessant pressure to report something even when you don't have anything solid to report at all.
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Old June 17 2013, 11:42 PM   #94
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Re: Rumors of a Special Surprise for the Anniversary

When people are talking 90 out of 106 lost episodes, that's when I (with difficulty) dial back my expectations. That's just flat out too good to be true. At best - AT BEST - I'm thinking the real number is somewhere between 2 and 20 episodes. Probably far closer to the former.

If all of this turns out to be vapor though - or worse, if it all gets scuttled because this guy couldn't keep his mouth shut - Johnston better pray the Daleks find him before any hardcore old-school Whovians do. At least the Daleks grant a quick death. (I'm only joking, of course.)
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Old June 17 2013, 11:49 PM   #95
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Re: Rumors of a Special Surprise for the Anniversary

Nightowl1701 wrote: View Post
At best - AT BEST - I'm thinking the real number is somewhere between 2 and 20 episodes. Probably far closer to the former.
Or zero.
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Old June 17 2013, 11:50 PM   #96
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Re: Rumors of a Special Surprise for the Anniversary

Nightowl1701 wrote: View Post
If it all gets scuttled because this guy couldn't keep his mouth shut
See, this is the part I just don't get. "Oh everyone knows I have these episodes now so I'm not going to give them to the BBC!" is a line of thought I just can't follow.
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Old June 17 2013, 11:54 PM   #97
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Re: Rumors of a Special Surprise for the Anniversary

Unless you add "for anything less than nine figures." (And if you think that's too much for anyone to ask, think about how close the BBC came to destroying all of Monty Python's Flying Circus in the early 70's - and how much they'd be willing to pay today for even a single episode in a world without it.)

Last edited by Nightowl1701; June 18 2013 at 12:15 AM.
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Old June 18 2013, 12:24 AM   #98
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Re: Rumors of a Special Surprise for the Anniversary

The only reason they would keep it secret is for bargaining purposes. If it's public knowledge, then the guy with the film would see the public excitement for it and use that as leverage against the BBC.

This could all come down to the BBC not having enough money to buy the film.
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Old June 18 2013, 12:55 AM   #99
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Re: Rumors of a Special Surprise for the Anniversary

Christopher wrote: View Post
But I think I have the right to report on rumours when they are being discussed and debated at the highest levels - as long as that's how I present them, and don't try and pretend that they are facts. On every stage I've tried to show my working out, as it were.
The problem with that attitude, though, is that just reporting them at all gives them an air of credibility. There was a time when one of the basic standards of good journalism was that you didn't report anything until you had at least two reliable sources for it, that rumors and hearsay were not news and thus didn't deserve to be treated as news. The problem with the 24-hour news cycle and the Internet is that it creates incessant pressure to report something even when you don't have anything solid to report at all.
I agree with this, with one major caveat.

Rich Johnston takes pains to say that he's not a reporter and that what he does isn't journalism. A lot of what he does looks like journalism, but by journalistic standards it's poorly sourced rumor mongering or reporting from off-the-record sources.

In this particular case, I was curious when anyone was going to pay attention to the rumors surrounding an episode find. While I have some issues with Johnston, particularly some of the methods he uses, in this case I feel that his initial report was appropriate and the blowback he's received from some corners of Who fandom is absurd and says more about the insecurity and insularity of some segments of fandom than it does about him.
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Old June 18 2013, 01:05 AM   #100
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Re: Rumors of a Special Surprise for the Anniversary

It's very interesting to know how such a rumour would start if some many people were whispering about it.

I said it before so I'll say it again - in 2011 only half a dozen people knew two episodes had just been found and they kept that secret for six months. Granted 90 episodes would be a different story but I can't see how so many people 'who are close to the discovery' or 'in the know' would openly mention it.

If I found an episode I'd contact Paul V straight away and speak with him only. Arrange shipping to the BBC with him only. I'd be biting my tongue every day I'd come on this forum but there's no sense ballsing it up ahead of time. There's a notion - be it right or wrong - that fans think they have the right to demand to know immediately when something has been found.

Just wait for the official announcement, and if Paul/Steve/Her Majesty the Queen says it's not true then believe them.

[/rant]
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Old June 18 2013, 01:44 AM   #101
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Re: Rumors of a Special Surprise for the Anniversary

The thing is, this rumour has been around since at least November. In some ways the surprising thing is that it's not gone this mainstream before now.
For what it's worth, in addition to the reasons Allyn suggested, one of the many run-downs of the possible 'problems' involved in recovering any episodes that I'd heard was that a fan had followed the leads, got there first and got the prints, and was refusing to hand them over until the super-fans (Levine, etc etc) gave up the other episodes he was convinced they were hoarding (so the negotiations were about convincing him that they really, really, didn't have any). Which shows how wild some of the rumours already were even before last week.
IMHO: I think there was a promising lead, but it's not led anywhere, and BleedingCool reported one of the garbled versions of whatever basic truth there was originally was.
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Old June 18 2013, 02:02 AM   #102
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Re: Rumors of a Special Surprise for the Anniversary

diankra wrote: View Post
one of the many run-downs of the possible 'problems' involved in recovering any episodes that I'd heard was that a fan had followed the leads, got there first and got the prints, and was refusing to hand them over until the super-fans (Levine, etc etc) gave up the other episodes he was convinced they were hoarding (so the negotiations were about convincing him that they really, really, didn't have any).
This is a major problem even without a missing episode rumour. Some are so convinced there are more out there but not in the public domain yet they won't believe it even if they are told from the horse's mouth.

This really stems from the fact that it's already happened on three occasions;

1983 - Ian Levine returns Invasion of the Dinosaurs 1 after holding onto it for a year as 'bargaining material' should other eps show up.

1991 - Ian Levine returns unedited copies of The Time Meddler 1 & 3; as the prints weren't his he didn't feel comfortable returning them beforehand.

2011 - The often repeated (by me) story of Galaxy 4 3 and The Underwater Menace 2 being kept secret for six months until the BFI screening.

You can see why some think the BBC / Levine / Vanezis / Roberts / the Beverley Sisters are keeping them secret...
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Old June 18 2013, 02:08 AM   #103
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Re: Rumors of a Special Surprise for the Anniversary

Candlelight wrote: View Post
diankra wrote: View Post
one of the many run-downs of the possible 'problems' involved in recovering any episodes that I'd heard was that a fan had followed the leads, got there first and got the prints, and was refusing to hand them over until the super-fans (Levine, etc etc) gave up the other episodes he was convinced they were hoarding (so the negotiations were about convincing him that they really, really, didn't have any).
This is a major problem even without a missing episode rumour. Some are so convinced there are more out there but not in the public domain yet they won't believe it even if they are told from the horse's mouth.

This really stems from the fact that it's already happened on three occasions;

1983 - Ian Levine returns Invasion of the Dinosaurs 1 after holding onto it for a year as 'bargaining material' should other eps show up.

1991 - Ian Levine returns unedited copies of The Time Meddler 1 & 3; as the prints weren't his he didn't feel comfortable returning them beforehand.

2011 - The often repeated (by me) story of Galaxy 4 3 and The Underwater Menace 2 being kept secret for six months until the BFI screening.

You can see why some think the BBC / Levine / Vanezis / Roberts / the Beverley Sisters are keeping them secret...
Indeed. But, as an example of why the 'hoarding' conspiracy theory falls apart, the Time Meddler was widely available on the VHS fan circuit in 1985/86, as soon as the Nigerian copies made it back to the BBC.
What a lot of people watching them, including myself, didn't realise was that the Nigerian copies were edited, whereas the versions running round the local groups weren't - they came from Levine's copies. So the existence of the complete copies was common knowledge to anyone paying attention six years before they were officially returned.
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Old June 18 2013, 03:33 AM   #104
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Re: Rumors of a Special Surprise for the Anniversary

I think... and this is just me being me... If I had found a missing story or multiple missing stories I'd go public with the news I'd found... one episode.

Distract everyone with your left hand holding one episode so they can't see you quietly giving another twelve to Paul Vanezis with the right hand.

When the official announcement comes through... BOOM.

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Old June 18 2013, 06:41 PM   #105
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Re: Rumors of a Special Surprise for the Anniversary

Rarewolf wrote: View Post
...condition, just because a film can contains an episode doesn't mean it will be recoverable.
It would have to be devastatingly damaged to not be recoverable with modern technology. No soundtrack is required and picture-wise they only need to be able to lie the film flat(ish) to scan it. Scratches/cracks/dirt etc. can be erased, black and white recoloured and missing frames recreated from those before and after it. The film could break up and be nearly opaque and still be salvageable given enough time and money.

TemporalFlux wrote: View Post
The only reason they would keep it secret is for bargaining purposes. If it's public knowledge, then the guy with the film would see the public excitement for it and use that as leverage against the BBC.

This could all come down to the BBC not having enough money to buy the film.
They don't need any money. Give the 'finder' a percentage of the net profit.
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