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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 15 2013, 03:20 PM   #241
Pauln6
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

BillJ wrote: View Post
It's not about it being acceptable. But Khan is the bad guy and does bad things, including crushing people's heads until they pop like a grape that's been stepped on. It's how we know he's the bad guy.

But I think audiences would've been a bit more squeamish if if was a woman in that position. Especially when domestic violence is still a real issue and tough to crack.
I agree but again, this is partly because women have too often been portrayed as helpless victims throughout movie history. But I think if the level of violence is toned down generally, it becomes less of an issue. We do see some female crewmen die in both movies.
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Old June 15 2013, 03:24 PM   #242
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

BillJ wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post
And I can imagine there would have been such an outrage if it had been Alexandra Marcus', and not Alexander Marcus' head that was crushed by Khan.
I don't know the answer to this. But I can't imagine it wouldn't have raised a few eye-brows here in the States.
The problem is, you can't have it both ways. If Admiral Marcus had been a woman, and if the story moves in a way that called for Khan to kill her in a fit of rage for the wrongs he thinks she did to him, then it has to be done. So it comes down to this, does he crush her head or do something "less violent," like vaporize her with a phaser or poison her?

For what it's worth, no one seemed too upset with what happened to the Borg queen or the Duras sisters.
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Old June 15 2013, 03:26 PM   #243
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
But I think if the level of violence is toned down generally, it becomes less of an issue. We do see some female crewmen die in both movies.
But that's a creative choice and I'm not interested in dictating those beyond whether I buy a ticket/merchandise or not.
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Old June 15 2013, 03:30 PM   #244
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Franklin wrote: View Post

For what it's worth, no one seemed too upset with what happened to the Borg queen or the Duras sisters.
I think that there are reasons why, in one it was a robot that was broken at the end and in the other they weren't killed by a man physically assaulting them with his hands.

If Riker had beaten the Duras sisters to death with his hands, I think we'd be having a different discussion.
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Old June 15 2013, 04:00 PM   #245
Franklin
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

BillJ wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post

For what it's worth, no one seemed too upset with what happened to the Borg queen or the Duras sisters.
I think that there are reasons why, in one it was a robot that was broken at the end and in the other they weren't killed by a man physically assaulting them with his hands.

If Riker had beaten the Duras sisters to death with his hands, I think we'd be having a different discussion.
Could be. Khan did give a hard kick to Carol Marcus that startled me a bit.
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Old June 15 2013, 04:12 PM   #246
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Franklin wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post

For what it's worth, no one seemed too upset with what happened to the Borg queen or the Duras sisters.
I think that there are reasons why, in one it was a robot that was broken at the end and in the other they weren't killed by a man physically assaulting them with his hands.

If Riker had beaten the Duras sisters to death with his hands, I think we'd be having a different discussion.
Could be. Khan did give a hard kick to Carol Marcus that startled me a bit.
I cringed more when Spock broke Khan's arm, but the leg-breaking was pretty brutal too.
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Old June 15 2013, 04:19 PM   #247
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

BillJ wrote: View Post
It's not about it being acceptable. But Khan is the bad guy and does bad things, including crushing people's heads until they pop like a grape that's been stepped on. It's how we know he's the bad guy.

But I think audiences would've been a bit more squeamish if if was a woman in that position. Especially when domestic violence is still a real issue and tough to crack.
Khan was the ultimate sexist in 'Space Seed'. He actually committed domestic violence against Marla McGivers.
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Old June 15 2013, 04:21 PM   #248
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

CommishSleer wrote: View Post

Khan was the ultimate sexist in 'Space Seed'. He actually committed domestic violence against Marla McGivers.
Can't really argue that point, because you're absolutely right.
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Old June 15 2013, 05:13 PM   #249
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

I can't help but wonder if it had been Lt. Janice Rand, Security Officer instead of Lt. Carol Marcus, Science Officer if we'd be having this same conversation.
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Old June 15 2013, 05:33 PM   #250
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
I can't help but wonder if it had been Lt. Janice Rand, Security Officer instead of Lt. Carol Marcus, Science Officer if we'd be having this same conversation.
Heh Janice has appeared in the ongoing comic as security support. I was really hoping that they were going to do a reboot of the Enemy Within and Janice would do a lot more than scratch Kirk's face this time - she can hand him his a**.

Unfortunately (for Janice) I think that they might re-write the story for Carol, who doesn't seem to be quite so physical a character. I think Carol seems like a good addition to the comics but I hope she doesn't steal one of Rand's few big scenes. It might be her only chance to develop as a more rounded character!
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Old June 15 2013, 05:59 PM   #251
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Franklin wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post
And I can imagine there would have been such an outrage if it had been Alexandra Marcus', and not Alexander Marcus' head that was crushed by Khan.
I don't know the answer to this. But I can't imagine it wouldn't have raised a few eye-brows here in the States.
The problem is, you can't have it both ways. If Admiral Marcus had been a woman, and if the story moves in a way that called for Khan to kill her in a fit of rage for the wrongs he thinks she did to him, then it has to be done. So it comes down to this, does he crush her head or do something "less violent," like vaporize her with a phaser or poison her?
I'm still disturbed by Riker vaporizing Yuta in The Vengeance Factor instead of taking one of the numerous non-lethal options available to him (like say, beaming up her intended target --Fat Road Warrior-- instead of Riker beaming down). That has nothing to do with her being a woman though, that was just because vaporization is jacked up. For that matter, Terrell vaporizing himself to resist Khan and stop the pain of the Ceti Eel in his head was pretty disturbing too, but less so since it was a final heroic act on his part and not a member of the crew straight up murdering someone to stop them from committing an easily preventable assassination. Under those circumstances I would have been fine with Riker tackling her or punching her or kicking her; anything other than sublimating her.
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Old June 15 2013, 10:10 PM   #252
Franklin
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

I don't know the answer to this. But I can't imagine it wouldn't have raised a few eye-brows here in the States.
The problem is, you can't have it both ways. If Admiral Marcus had been a woman, and if the story moves in a way that called for Khan to kill her in a fit of rage for the wrongs he thinks she did to him, then it has to be done. So it comes down to this, does he crush her head or do something "less violent," like vaporize her with a phaser or poison her?
I'm still disturbed by Riker vaporizing Yuta in The Vengeance Factor instead of taking one of the numerous non-lethal options available to him (like say, beaming up her intended target --Fat Road Warrior-- instead of Riker beaming down). That has nothing to do with her being a woman though, that was just because vaporization is jacked up. For that matter, Terrell vaporizing himself to resist Khan and stop the pain of the Ceti Eel in his head was pretty disturbing too, but less so since it was a final heroic act on his part and not a member of the crew straight up murdering someone to stop them from committing an easily preventable assassination. Under those circumstances I would have been fine with Riker tackling her or punching her or kicking her; anything other than sublimating her.
I had forgotten about that. What Riker did was disturbing to say the least and bordered on cold-blooded murder to say the most. That Picard just sat there (or that any of them did) and said nothing as it unfolded is just as bad. Not a very heroic moment for anyone.

It's purely moot, but I guess what I wonder is if the writers would have been wary of a negative audience reaction to having Khan kill a female Admiral Marcus with his bare hands. As a character, I think Khan was despicable enough to actually do it, but the feeling on this board is that it would've been distrubing to the audience, and I agree. But that begs a question. If Adm. Marcus had been cast as a woman, how differently would that bridge scene between Khan and Marcus need to be played out?
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Old June 15 2013, 11:19 PM   #253
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
It's not about it being acceptable. But Khan is the bad guy and does bad things, including crushing people's heads until they pop like a grape that's been stepped on. It's how we know he's the bad guy.

But I think audiences would've been a bit more squeamish if if was a woman in that position. Especially when domestic violence is still a real issue and tough to crack.
Khan was the ultimate sexist in 'Space Seed'. He actually committed domestic violence against Marla McGivers.
How true. What gets me is why she'd want to be with a man like Khan in the first place.

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
I'm still disturbed by Riker vaporizing Yuta in The Vengeance Factor instead of taking one of the numerous non-lethal options available to him (like say, beaming up her intended target --Fat Road Warrior-- instead of Riker beaming down).
That was a split-second decision of saving the life of one of the leaders of a planet that's a Federation member from being murdered in cold blood, who was probably going to die after she'd accomplished said murder. Nothing sexist about it at all, from my POV.
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Old June 15 2013, 11:47 PM   #254
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Actually, it was Winona's absence FROM THE MOVIE after giving birth that led to that criticism. It was the absence of her as a discernible influence compared to her dead husband i.e. the lack of respect to her as a character.
Wait... are we still talking about Star Trek? Because if we are, there isn't a single part of the above paragraph that makes an ounce of sense.

Of course she is. And yet she IS a woman, whatever else she also represents.
Paired with her husband, they sort of cancel each other out and he's a more prominent character...
Where literally every scene he's involved in and slightly more than half of his lines have something to do with Amanda.

It's almost a Reverse Bechdel. Sarek and Spock talk about little else EXCEPT for Spock's mother. Really, how prominent is the father character in a story if the only thing anyone ever says to him is "Man I wish Mom was here..."

I'm not overly obsessed with department heads. I'm happy for Rand to remain a petty officer and Kirk's yeoman.
In which case you'd be hard pressed to prevent her from being written out of the movie altogether, since there's no real reason for "The Captain's Yeoman" to have any meaningful lines that couldn't be attributed to Spock, Uhura, Carol or Bones.

I'd still be happy if she appeared.
No you wouldn't. Especially since you wouldn't notice that she DID appear if she didn't have any lines, especially so if she died three minutes after her first silent appearance.

Nonsense. There are quite a few supporting male cast members. Just use the women instead. Simples.
And they did. Very prominently, in fact.

Lol - I'm willing to bet that they had more than enough actresses auditioning, just not that many role for them to fill.
You know better than that. "Extras" are cast based on a broad set of qualifications, but gender isn't one of them. If they had majority females auditioning for those roles, there'd be a majority of females in the background of the crew.

You're implying that female actresses have a tendency to gravitate towards science fiction/action films despite the fact that you have to know, on some level, that this is not the case. If women are under-represented in this regard, it's primarily because of the lack of desire to BE represented.
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Old June 15 2013, 11:54 PM   #255
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Actually, it was Winona's absence FROM THE MOVIE after giving birth that led to that criticism. It was the absence of her as a discernible influence compared to her dead husband i.e. the lack of respect to her as a character.
Wait... are we still talking about Star Trek? Because if we are, there isn't a single part of the above paragraph that makes an ounce of sense.

Of course she is. And yet she IS a woman, whatever else she also represents.
Paired with her husband, they sort of cancel each other out and he's a more prominent character...
Where literally every scene he's involved in and slightly more than half of his lines have something to do with Amanda.
I think Pauln6 was talking about Kirk's mom, named Winona Kirk, and not Spock's mom, Amanda Grayson.
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