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Old June 15 2013, 03:52 PM   #496
T'Girl
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

RandyS wrote: View Post
If you were a disabled man (I am) and were beaten by a drunken brother (I was), you wouldn't want booze around you either.
I'm very sorry for your experience, but have you considered that the alcohol wasn't the source of the problem and the fault stemmed directly from your brother?

Faria wrote: View Post
Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
Turbolifts do take up space, but so does everything else. Space is not at a premium on a starship, there's plenty of extra room.
i would not waste space in a ship with a saucer section of 128 meters which had to host more than 420 persons
If space were that limited, then get rid of the corridors too and just have interconnecting rooms. You would also eliminate private living quarters for all but the most senior officers, I mean Lieutenant Uhura had a pair of private connecting rooms. Apparently space aboard the ship isn't that constrained.

The turbo lifts are the ship's transportation system, in addition to personal, they likely move equipment and freight about the ship too. They're not just taxi cabs, they're delivery trucks.

Jonas Grumby wrote: View Post
I have to admit I never thought they were being preachy about alcohol, simply stating that they had a similar tasting beverage without the intoxicating effects
Judging by Scotty's immediate reaction to what he drank, I don't believe it tasted "similar."

Crazyewok wrote: View Post
I mean you dont want the crew to go off duty to a party get pissed then a borg ships appears?
The entire crew doesn't go off duty at the same time, and it's unlikely that all the ones off duty at any one time are drinking to the point they're intoxicated.

robau wrote: View Post
That makes no sense to me. The only reason to put up with the taste of beer is for the intoxication.
Not all beers taste the same, the flavors and textures vary pretty widely. Plus certain foods are accentuated by alcohol, spicy with beer, fish with wine, steak with scotch.

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Old June 15 2013, 04:11 PM   #497
Crazyewok
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

[QUOTE=T'Girl;8251297]
RandyS wrote: View Post
If you doesn't go off duty at the same time, and it's unlikely that all the ones off duty at any one time are drinking to the point they're intoxicated.
Why do people take things so litrally?

I think you missed my point. To illistrate why synthahol is
better on a starship.

Yes I know not everyone is off duty and no not everyone at party will get drunk! But even if say a 1/8 of the crew were at a big parts and got pissed and a emergancy happend in which case everybody is called to stations imagine the fallout?

You also dont want to risk a vital officer succumbing or indulging in alcoholism which is a trap any human can fall into accidently. So best way to prevent that? Well try and have synthahol only on starships (though we know that rule is bent sometimes).

My point is synthahol is safer on a 4 million ton starship packed with weapons and sheilding whose purpose is to go into the unkown or defend the federation.

If I was in charge of starfleet command I would have a Zero tolarance of any serving personal keeping or comsuming alcoholic bevrages while stationed on a Starship or starbase. Its not that im against booze, being a brit I love a booze up. But when saftey is involved it has no place. I would have struck off the Enterprise A senoir staffs commssions for consumeing a Alcoholic bevrage which did infact impair there responses in TUDC.

Last edited by Crazyewok; June 15 2013 at 04:24 PM.
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Old June 15 2013, 07:29 PM   #498
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Crazyewok wrote: View Post
My point is synthahol is safer ...
I believe I understand you point, and while I can respect where it's coming from, I don't agree with your position.

Yes I know not everyone is off duty and no not everyone at party will get drunk! But even if say a 1/8 of the crew were at a big parts and got pissed and a emergancy happend in which case everybody is called to stations imagine the fallout?
Don't get me wrong. I can easily see there being a regulation prohibiting drinking to the point where you're impaired and couldn't perform your duties if suddenly recalled to duty.

But that not the same as completely eliminating all alcohol on board.

On those rare occasions that you're allowed to drink on US Navy ships (beer day), you must be at least four hours away from your next assigned duty shift.

You also dont want to risk a vital officer succumbing or indulging in alcoholism which is a trap any human can fall into accidently.
Any Human? Again we disagree, by the 24th century having a genetic predisposition toward alcoholism will have been either solved or at least be identifiable, those so identified would need to engage in personal responsibility and self control.

Others who became alcoholics through deliberate actions would likely either be given treatment, or asked to resign. I would imagine this would be the case with any form of substance abuse or disruptive personal behavior.

So best way to prevent that? Well try and have synthahol only on starships (though we know that rule is bent sometimes).
The "best way" would be to have people who you can trust around alcohol.

My point is synthahol is safer on a 4 million ton starship packed with weapons and sheilding whose purpose is to go into the unkown or defend the federation.
Wouldn't selecting people capable of self control be better still? This attribute would extend not just to drink, but other areas.

If I was in charge of starfleet command I would have a Zero tolarance of any serving personal keeping or comsuming alcoholic bevrages while stationed on a Starship or starbase.
You missing something. These people aren't just going out on a six month deployment to sea, they are living years and decades of their lives aboard the starships and at the starbases to which they're assigned.

... senoir staffs commssions for consuming a Alcoholic bevrage which did infact impair there responses in TUDC.
There was no sign that consuming the Romulan Ale in any way slowed or altered the officers responses. While Kirk and Chekov both were experiencing headaches (and maybe body aches), their abilities to preform their duties was intact. And Scotty showed no effects at all, neither did McCoy.

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Old June 15 2013, 07:33 PM   #499
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

T'Girl wrote: View Post
And Scotty showed no effects at all, neither did McCoy.
Scotty was made of sterner stuff.

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Old June 15 2013, 08:14 PM   #500
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Faria wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Yet none are as bizarrely shaped as the Enterprise. Getting from the shuttlebay to the bridge with only vertical lifts would require three or four elevator journies (two in the neck alone, owing to its angle) and a walk of about 200 meters. Not very good in an emergency situation!

Weird shaped ships need weird ways to get through them.
solution: reduce neck angle
In that case, your issue is with the goofy and incredibly impractical shape of Trek's spaceships. If Trek suddenly started having sensibly shaped vessels, it just wouldn't be the same.
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Old June 15 2013, 11:41 PM   #501
Crazyewok
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

T'Girl wrote: View Post

Don't get me wrong. I can easily see there being a regulation prohibiting drinking to the point where you're impaired and couldn't perform your duties if suddenly recalled to duty.

But that not the same as completely eliminating all alcohol on board.
But why would you need Alcahol with synathol onboard? If you cant do without the real booze then you have a problem.
T'Girl wrote: View Post
On those rare occasions that you're allowed to drink on US Navy ships (beer day), you must be at least four hours away from your next assigned duty shift.
And if synthahol existed then I bet beer day would be replaced with synthahol where ever whenever.


T'Girl wrote: View Post
The "best way" would be to have people who you can trust around alcohol.
Well yeah but sythahol onboard works.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
You missing something. These people aren't just going out on a six month deployment to sea, they are living years and decades of their lives aboard the starships and at the starbases to which they're assigned.
Well again YOU HAVE SYNTHAHOL if you want to stay at home and booze up all day then dont join starfleet. Otherwise have synthahol that does the same thing but which side go quicker and isnt addictive.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
There was no sign that consuming the Romulan Ale in any way slowed or altered the officers responses. While Kirk and Chekov both were experiencing headaches (and maybe body aches), their abilities to preform their duties was intact. And Scotty showed no effects at all, neither did McCoy.

So even though my repsonses seem ok after a few beers I should be ok to drive even though Im over the Drink driveing limit? Thats ok is it?
Same with driveing hung over? That ok even though its shown to impair responses (normaly if hung over your still over the limit anyway?). No maybe it would not have made a diffrence in the situation but the principle still the same. And they did get caught out as the fact they were still probably slightly intoxicated was brought out in the trial, so it gave the klingons fuel to use.
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Old June 16 2013, 10:01 PM   #502
robau
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Not all beers taste the same, the flavors and textures vary pretty widely. Plus certain foods are accentuated by alcohol, spicy with beer, fish with wine, steak with scotch.

Meh. Different beers simply taste like different variations of shit to me. Except one I had which was called sour & sweet. Apparently that wasn't very popular at the brewpub though.
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Old June 16 2013, 10:36 PM   #503
marksound
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Synthehol was just something they made up to sound futuristic, but we have it already. It's called "non-alcoholic" or "near" beer and "virgin" drinks.

I'm pretty sure that in the 24th century there are rules regarding the consumption of alcohol by ship's crew, just like there are in today's military.

The premise of the discussion, in my opinion, is a little ridiculous.
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Old June 17 2013, 03:53 AM   #504
T'Girl
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Carcazoid wrote: View Post
The premise of the discussion, in my opinion, is a little ridiculous.
Which is a good enough reason to move on.

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Old June 17 2013, 09:00 AM   #505
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

.

Last edited by Push The Button; June 17 2013 at 09:36 AM. Reason: Already addressed by previous posts
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Old June 17 2013, 09:45 AM   #506
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

It was Voyager's "Dark Frontier" in which Tom Paris said that the "new world economy" took over in the late 22nd century, eliminating money. TOS referenced money in "Errand of Mercy" and "Trouble With Tribbles", then Kirk said they don't use money in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, and then Scotty mentioned buying a boat in STVI: The Undiscovered Country. Most recently, Kirk offered to pay for Uhura's drink in Star Trek.

It's a little muddled, to say the least.
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Old June 17 2013, 12:00 PM   #507
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
It was Voyager's "Dark Frontier" in which Tom Paris said that the "new world economy" took over in the late 22nd century, eliminating money. TOS referenced money in "Errand of Mercy" and "Trouble With Tribbles", then Kirk said they don't use money in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, and then Scotty mentioned buying a boat in STVI: The Undiscovered Country. Most recently, Kirk offered to pay for Uhura's drink in Star Trek.

It's a little muddled, to say the least.
DS9 makes it clear that money is alive and well in both the Federation and the galaxy, and that the no money thing is confined to humanity, as a whole. DS9: In the Cards even ridicules the idea of a money-less society, comparing it, in so many words, to a whacked-out hippie commune.

DS9: In the Cards wrote:
JAKE: Come on, Nog.
NOG: No.
JAKE: Why not?
NOG: It's my money, Jake. If you want to bid at the auction, use your own money.
JAKE: I'm human, I don't have any money.
NOG: It's not my fault that your species decided to abandon currency-based economics in favour of some philosophy of self-enhancement.
JAKE: Hey, watch it. There's nothing wrong with our philosophy. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity.
NOG: What does that mean exactly?
JAKE: It means. It means we don't need money.
NOG: Well if you don't need money, then you certainly don't need mine.
JAKE: How much latinum do you have? How much?
NOG: Five bars.
JAKE: Five bars!
NOG: Look, it's taken me a lifetime to save up that much money, and I'm not going to just throw it away for some baseball card.
JAKE: Not even for my father, the man who made it possible for you to enter Starfleet Academy.
NOG: Oh no, that's not fair.
JAKE: The man who believed in you when no one else would.
NOG: Oh, this is so low.
JAKE: I can't believe you would rather keep your filthy money locked away in a box under a bed than use it to give him endless moments of happiness.
NOG: Argh! All right, all right. I'll do it.
JAKE: That's very generous, Nog. I'm proud of you. Now let's get that money.
NOG: Humans.
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Old June 22 2013, 10:02 PM   #508
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

I had always assumed that "no money" did not preclude having (electronic or virtual) currency. Within the Federation, currency would not be a commodity in itself, but that individual would still be credited for their labors and contributions. Within larger governments (first, United Earth, second, UFP), currency could exist as a measure of exchanges on an abstract level, as along as all the members agree to standards for earnings and exchanges. It would only be a problem when UFP citizens made contracts with those from other governments. The only time money was used was on DS9, and even then it seemed that Starfleet personel were not eager to conduct business in "latinum," but preferred to exchange materials.
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Old June 22 2013, 10:12 PM   #509
marksound
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
I had always assumed that "no money" did not preclude having (electronic or virtual) currency. Within the Federation, currency would not be a commodity in itself, but that individual would still be credited for their labors and contributions. Within larger governments (first, United Earth, second, UFP), currency could exist as a measure of exchanges on an abstract level, as along as all the members agree to standards for earnings and exchanges. It would only be a problem when UFP citizens made contracts with those from other governments. The only time money was used was on DS9, and even then it seemed that Starfleet personel were not eager to conduct business in "latinum," but preferred to exchange materials.
This.

There has to be some measure of exchange.
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Old June 23 2013, 10:38 AM   #510
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Carcazoid wrote: View Post
Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
I had always assumed that "no money" did not preclude having (electronic or virtual) currency. Within the Federation, currency would not be a commodity in itself, but that individual would still be credited for their labors and contributions. Within larger governments (first, United Earth, second, UFP), currency could exist as a measure of exchanges on an abstract level, as along as all the members agree to standards for earnings and exchanges. It would only be a problem when UFP citizens made contracts with those from other governments. The only time money was used was on DS9, and even then it seemed that Starfleet personel were not eager to conduct business in "latinum," but preferred to exchange materials.
This.

There has to be some measure of exchange.
Yeah, something like "I scratch your back, if you scratch mine".

They had some sort of currency in TOS, despite constantly saying they don't. Otherwise, there would be no market for Tribbles and no glasses to be bought as presents.
I always assumed there was no currency within Starfleet, not within Federation as a whole. Or if there isn't then UFP is a communist organization. After all Leningrad is still called like that.
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