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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old June 10 2013, 12:18 PM   #76
Use of Time
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Of all the things I have seen debated on this episode I don't think I've ever seen this much attention given to the damn shift schedule. It was a simple plot device intended to increase the dramatic interactions between Jellico and Riker. Nothing more and nothing less. I think you guys are going way to far into the weeds on this.

Was Jellico being unreasonable with the shift schedule? Maybe
Were the department heads exaggerating that they would be shorthanded? Maybe
Is it a big enough sample size to really criticize CAPT Jellico? Not really.
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Old June 10 2013, 09:36 PM   #77
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Use of Time wrote: View Post
Of all the things I have seen debated on this episode I don't think I've ever seen this much attention given to the damn shift schedule. It was a simple plot device intended to increase the dramatic interactions between Jellico and Riker. Nothing more and nothing less. I think you guys are going way to far into the weeds on this.

Was Jellico being unreasonable with the shift schedule? Maybe
Were the department heads exaggerating that they would be shorthanded? Maybe
Is it a big enough sample size to really criticize CAPT Jellico? Not really.
Gary7 wrote: View Post
We'll never know. It's hard to debate definitively one way or another.
Thank you & Thank you. All I've ever really been saying is that there's no concrete evidence to support calling this order a bad one, & thereby not suitable grounds for calling it a bad call or the man a bad captain. The ambiguity of him being a good captain that didn't jive with the crew for whatever reasons is what his part of the episode is about

I usually come to his defense, because it's most common that people unjustly malign him because he is the new boss handing out orders to our beloved characters, when actually it's more obvious that Riker is in the wrong a great deal & due to the situation, Jellico seems bossy, but that may not be the reality, & we can't know the entirety of that reality, despite some people claiming otherwise

It's gone on too long & is a bore to anybody still reading it at this point, & I'm pretty much done, because I've stated what needs to be said. If people don't know the entirety of what this character is doing & why, which we don't, then it is a baseless argument to say he's doing something wrong

One last time, He is the captain, & the captain's orders are to be respected as having a legitimate reason, unless you're saying he's an unfit captain.
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Old June 11 2013, 06:04 PM   #78
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Mojochi wrote: View Post
I usually come to his [Jellico's] defense, because it's most common that people unjustly malign him because he is the new boss handing out orders to our beloved characters, when actually it's more obvious that Riker is in the wrong a great deal & due to the situation, Jellico seems bossy, but that may not be the reality, & we can't know the entirety of that reality, despite some people claiming otherwise

It's gone on too long & is a bore to anybody still reading it at this point, & I'm pretty much done, because I've stated what needs to be said. If people don't know the entirety of what this character is doing & why, which we don't, then it is a baseless argument to say he's doing something wrong

One last time, He is the captain, & the captain's orders are to be respected as having a legitimate reason, unless you're saying he's an unfit captain.
Very well said--I think you hit the "nail on the head."

An interesting semi-analogy to consider is Captain Christopher Pike. Many people like to bash Jeffrey Hunter as presenting a less appealing captain than Shatner did, and that the series was essentially "saved" by how the role ownership turned out. But we don't know how Jeffrey would have handled the role in the long run. His character was framed by the circumstances given, where Pike had just come off a really awful mission where crewmen died. Pike was worn out by the experience and starting to ponder about possibly resigning his commission. It was just one episode, and a difficult one for the captain at that. Same thing for the Jellico character. Thrust into a dire circumstance and not having much free time to do things the "easy way." But we don't get to see his character in other circumstances to get a good idea of how he really is as a starship captain.

And with that... I bid you all farewell.
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Old June 13 2013, 09:25 AM   #79
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

My interpretation was Jellico knew this would be a short mission and he needed everyone to respect his authority and for that, he needed to get them used to being ordered around. He couldn't earn their respect like Picard, so instead he wanted to get them to hate him but running themselves ragged to follow his orders.
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Old June 13 2013, 03:29 PM   #80
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
My interpretation was Jellico knew this would be a short mission and he needed everyone to respect his authority and for that, he needed to get them used to being ordered around. He couldn't earn their respect like Picard, so instead he wanted to get them to hate him but running themselves ragged to follow his orders.
I don't think he wanted to be hated. He was asked to oversee a difficult mission in spite of having almost no time to get acclimated to the Enterprise or its crew, something people often forget. The adjustment was probably just as difficult for Jellico as it was for everyone else. He didn't concern himself with how anyone felt about it because his top priority was the mission at hand. Had he remained in command of Enterprise after the mission, it's likely he would have taken time to get know the crew better.

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Old June 14 2013, 11:58 PM   #81
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

^I don't think he wanted to be hated either. I think he quite correctly expected to be unwelcomed, & that it would take the form of resistance to his authority. His choice was to either be accommodating about it & risk not delivering what he was expected to deliver, or the better choice would be to embrace the imposition & use it to his advantage, not dissimilarly to how he used his "Unreasonable Captain" stance with the Cardassians too

The mark of a brilliant tactician & a useful leader is to turn weaknesses into strengths & obstacles into tools or weapons. I'd say he did that exceedingly well, in both cases, & if some of them were too dim or stubborn to get on board with that, then they're the fools, & truthfully, only Riker let it go that far. Everyone else by the end was working exceptionally well with Jellico in succeeding with their mission, & even Riker got the chance to redeem himself to a degree
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Old June 15 2013, 02:41 AM   #82
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Exactly. There was no time to feel each other out and learn how to be intuitive to what your crew is thinking. A unified front needed to be presented to the Cardassians and given the timeframe Jellico had to work with he opted for the stricter style.
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Old June 15 2013, 02:48 AM   #83
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Use of Time wrote: View Post
Exactly. There was no time to feel each other out and learn how to be intuitive to what your crew is thinking. A unified front needed to be presented to the Cardassians and given the timeframe Jellico had to work with he opted for the stricter style.
It really is amazing how poorly Riker and company handled the situation. Cardassians aren't a people to whom one can show weakness and expect to come away unscathed. What did they think was going to happen if Gul Lemec and his men picked up on the tension within the Enterprise senior staff?

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Old June 15 2013, 03:10 AM   #84
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Yep. Show me one example of the crew attempting to do things Jellico's way or actively trying to help him with the mission. I'm not talking about suggesting he lighten up or attempts to convince him to leave things alone. I'm talking about someone saying "yes sir we will get it done." The only ones that come to mind are Data and possibly Worf.
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Old June 15 2013, 03:24 AM   #85
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Use of Time wrote: View Post
Yep. Show me one example of the crew attempting to do things Jellico's way or actively trying to help him with the mission. I'm not talking about suggesting he lighten up or attempts to convince him to leave things alone. I'm talking about someone saying "yes sir we will get it done." The only ones that come to mind are Data and possibly Worf.
Agreed. Data seemed to work well with him. I don't remember much about how Worf got on with him.

I do remember Crusher openly sulking about the possibility of casualties being sent her way during battle. What the hell did she think he was supposed to do? Not fight back if the Cardassians started shooting? Let them march right into Federation space? How many people would have died then?

I hope there was off-camera moment following Picard's return in which he said something about the way Jellico was treated. I can't imagine Jellico complaining about it, but captains have a way of knowing when there's been trouble. Had I been in Picard's shoes, I'd have been furious.

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Old June 15 2013, 04:22 AM   #86
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Use of Time wrote: View Post
Yep. Show me one example of the crew attempting to do things Jellico's way or actively trying to help him with the mission. I'm not talking about suggesting he lighten up or attempts to convince him to leave things alone. I'm talking about someone saying "yes sir we will get it done." The only ones that come to mind are Data and possibly Worf.
Geordi came on strong later on too. It was ultimately the command team of Jellico, Data, & Laforge that reasoned out The Cardassian plan, and set the mission up to go on the offensive.

& even Troi got savvy enough to know to keep in line, & was actually the only one to somewhat agree with Jellico's plan to engage the Cardies at Minos Korva

Plus, as I've mentioned, it was Geordi that got Jellico to reinstate Riker for the piloting mission. Once Riker is relieved, everyone else really falls in line & functions exceptionally well as a team, except Crusher's one objection, which went without too much difficulty
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Old June 15 2013, 04:32 AM   #87
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

^Riker's benching was the writing on the wall: either get your act together or get out. The crew didn't have a choice but to follow Jellico's orders once he confined Riker to quarters. I don't mean to imply that they had a choice before that happened, but their perception of the situation changed once Jellico put his foot down.

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Old June 15 2013, 04:51 AM   #88
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Sran wrote: View Post
^Riker's benching was the writing on the wall: either get your act together or get out. The crew didn't have a choice but to follow Jellico's orders once he confined Riker to quarters. I don't mean to imply that they had a choice before that happened, but their perception of the situation changed once Jellico put his foot down.

--Sran
Though nothing is stated either way, I suspect Riker was in his quarters of his own free will, not confined there, because Jellico explicitly stated to not make him do that

I actually take it as a sign that Riker's bucking the chain of command had repercussions on their subordinates. It gave them the will to not respect the captain too. Once the agitator was gone, the chain of command returned to normal, & everyone actually benefited from a more functional dynamic
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Old June 15 2013, 08:17 PM   #89
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

The more I think about it (and having just watched BOBW) the more..."Now I see why he didn't get his own command" comes off as utterly insane. We ARE talking about the guy whose plan saved Earth, and probably the Federation and the AQ aren't we??? I mean seriously Jellico? You come in and start blasting orders, keep your officers in the dark as to your intentions...and then stand there baffled when there are communication problems and slander a ****ing hero? Look in the mirror dude.

If there were any kind of hearing...Jean Luc Picard giving testimony that Jellico said that about Riker...that ALONE would probably get Jellico shipped off to Delta Vega.

I'm not saying Jellico was wrong to relieve Riker, but that stuff above is just ignorant.
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Old June 15 2013, 08:22 PM   #90
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Sran wrote: View Post
Use of Time wrote: View Post
Yep. Show me one example of the crew attempting to do things Jellico's way or actively trying to help him with the mission. I'm not talking about suggesting he lighten up or attempts to convince him to leave things alone. I'm talking about someone saying "yes sir we will get it done." The only ones that come to mind are Data and possibly Worf.
Agreed. Data seemed to work well with him. I don't remember much about how Worf got on with him.

I do remember Crusher openly sulking about the possibility of casualties being sent her way during battle. What the hell did she think he was supposed to do? Not fight back if the Cardassians started shooting? Let them march right into Federation space? How many people would have died then?

I hope there was off-camera moment following Picard's return in which he said something about the way Jellico was treated. I can't imagine Jellico complaining about it, but captains have a way of knowing when there's been trouble. Had I been in Picard's shoes, I'd have been furious.

--Sran
Crusher just went through a lot and hasn't got her mind wrapped around the situation yet. I'd give my CMO a pass on that. And I'm absolutely sure that Picard has no time for drama after what he's been through.

At the end of the day, I'm sure everyone probably said, "That could have gone better" and Riker said, "Well...that escalated quickly."
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