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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 14 2013, 12:56 AM   #151
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Yeah, I felt that Chekov was totally superfluous in both movies. I would have been far happier if they had stuck with one of the women and then introduced Chekov further down the line at a more age-appropriate point. Anton is great fun but it looks like they really struggled to use him in any way that was recognisable for his character.
I basically agree with this. Ilia would be the obvious choice.
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Old June 14 2013, 01:37 AM   #152
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
It is extremely funny that Star Trek: Insurrection passes the Bechdel test by having:
1. Crusher and Troi
2. talk to each other
3. about their boobs getting firm.
Very true.
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Old June 14 2013, 03:00 AM   #153
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
KittyDuran wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Even though I bang on about wanting more women and in general prefer women characters I give Star Trek a pass on the male main leads. That is just TOS for you. Kirk and Spock were a duo the way Picard and Riker never were, chemistry and writing just made some magic with those two. I think JJ is doing some stuff towards putting more women into the supporting characters and I also think he could have made a much bigger effort in this film. Yes there are 5 (?) women at the table when the special meeting is called (someone posted a pic with them numbered, might be more). But they are still a distinct minority. And when Kirk and Spock run up to talk to Marcus about Khan being on Chronos he is having a meeting with about 7 other people he dismisses. All of those people are men. That's just silly. How hard would it be to make half of them women? I look at this and think, didn't JJ notice?

So he has a way to go just visually IMO. But I'm totally cool with this being the Kirk and Spock show, that's what I'm here for.
In the special meeting at Daystrom there were Admirals, Captains and First Officers - also, some of them either died or where injured (including one woman in the leg) when Khan attacked - the officers in the special meeting with Marcus when Kirk and Spock interrupt might be some of the survivors or replacements (but just happen to be all men). Also, at the time, before Kirk and Spock inform Marcus that Khan is on Kronos, it was believed that Khan was still either on Earth or in federation space - maybe Marcus was having more than one meeting with officers of different regions.
I get the impression that Marcus' interrupted meeting was with the upper echelons which were all male.
It wasn't the upper echelons, it was just the captains and first officers of al the ships that were in the sector at that time. For all we know it Khan had blow the archive up a week earlier the meeting could have had more women then men, or hell been mostly non-human.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Uhura stares down a Klingon warrior in his own language and eventually stabs him in the leg when the shit hits the fan;
Oh that was the guy's leg, I though she may have stabbed something lower, more to the center and probably more important to males at least than that (assuming Klingons have those in the same place as humans).

You know we really need a wince emote.
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Old June 14 2013, 03:46 PM   #154
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
*snip*
So what do you want? Do you want numbers or substance? Do you want them to bring back Rand to take over for Cupcake even though he wasn't a well fleshed out character other than raging douchebag? And why wouldn't you want her as department head? Why keep her as just a yeoman?

Because I've been following this and I have no idea what you want other than to make a big stink and create a conflict where none exists.
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Old June 14 2013, 06:41 PM   #155
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Kruezerman wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
*snip*
So what do you want? Do you want numbers or substance? Do you want them to bring back Rand to take over for Cupcake even though he wasn't a well fleshed out character other than raging douchebag? And why wouldn't you want her as department head? Why keep her as just a yeoman?

Because I've been following this and I have no idea what you want other than to make a big stink and create a conflict where none exists.
In a genre like Star Trek, if you have numbers you end up having substance. It will self correct.

I'm happy with Rand being a yeoman instead of a department head head because there is absolutely no need for her to be a department head to contribute. This is distinct from Chapel whose role would be subsumed by McCoy as a nurse.

In fact, Rand is more likely to get air time as Kirk's yeoman than she would as a department head or plain security guard because she needs no in-story excuse to be in his orbit. Apart from Spock, McCoy and Scotty, no other department heads have featured. It also looks as though Scotty has no spare engineering officers to fill in for him when he's off the ship.

Why do you view gender equality in the franchise as a conflict? I view it as an easily achievable improvement. Certainly a lot of women want to see a better representation of women on screen but surely that's a laudable goal? Would you view more women on screen in more diverse roles as a bad thing?
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Old June 14 2013, 06:55 PM   #156
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Why do you view gender equality in the franchise as a conflict?
No one does that.

You want to see a quota filled. There is a difference.
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Old June 14 2013, 07:09 PM   #157
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

beamMe wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Why do you view gender equality in the franchise as a conflict?
No one does that.

You want to see a quota filled. There is a difference.
Precisely. We have a strong, professional woman in Uhura and a highly intelligent, capable woman in Carol Marcus.

As a gay man, I care not for numbers but for substance. If I don't "see" any (since I look and act like a straight man) I'll just assume that they're there. No big deal to me.
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Old June 14 2013, 07:22 PM   #158
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

beamMe wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Why do you view gender equality in the franchise as a conflict?
No one does that.

You want to see a quota filled. There is a difference.
I've never advocated a quota. However, the discrepancy is so obvious and has been for decades that I think they need to look more carefully at why the discrepancy is so persistent andd what can be done to rectify it.

In fact, what I've advocated in the past is flipping a coin at script stage to determine the gender of any character with a speaking part whose gender isn't determined by something plot specific (such as a heterosexual character's love interest). If 70 supporting characters in the cast from Trek 09, it would take maybe 10 minutes tops. Seems simple enough.

But if you think that gender equality in Trek is laudable, what method would you find acceptable to even up the numbers?

I think, 'leave it to the script writers' is an unsatisfactory approach because after 40+ years, the script writers have failed to achieve major gains and 2:1 is still the norm.
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Old June 14 2013, 07:36 PM   #159
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
In fact, what I've advocated in the past is flipping a coin at script stage to determine the gender of any character with a speaking part whose gender isn't determined by something plot specific (such as a heterosexual character's love interest). If 70 supporting characters in the cast from Trek 09, it would take maybe 10 minutes tops. Seems simple enough.
And if they flip the coin and it comes out with 55 men and 15 women you'll be crying foul as well.

When your spending $200 million of your own money to finance a film or are hired to direct one, then those decisions will be yours to make. Until then, your only requirement is to decide whether or not you will financially support the product.
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Old June 14 2013, 07:38 PM   #160
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
But if you think that gender equality in Trek is laudable, what method would you find acceptable to even up the numbers?
They are equal in ST and STID.

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
, what method would you find acceptable to even up the numbers?
See, you are still just looking for a quota to be filled.
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Old June 14 2013, 07:38 PM   #161
Pauln6
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

BillJ wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
In fact, what I've advocated in the past is flipping a coin at script stage to determine the gender of any character with a speaking part whose gender isn't determined by something plot specific (such as a heterosexual character's love interest). If 70 supporting characters in the cast from Trek 09, it would take maybe 10 minutes tops. Seems simple enough.
And if they flip the coin and it comes out with 55 men and 15 women you'll be crying foul as well.
I'll take that chance!

Still, can you think of a better way?
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Old June 14 2013, 07:39 PM   #162
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Um, don't go see the movie or don't care.

I suggest the second (latter?) because that's what I do.
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Old June 14 2013, 07:45 PM   #163
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post

Still, can you think of a better way?
Yeah, and I've mentioned it multiple times.

Don't support it financially if it doesn't meet your personal standards on the treatment of women.

But here's my problem, you're trying to fight a battle without a frame of reference. You're not a woman, you haven't been through what women have had to go through and it shows here. Badly. You're trying to fix a problem that all the women I know in the real world and most who are here don't think exists with this particular film.

You seem to be waaaayyyyy off base and don't either seem to realize it or don't care.
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Old June 14 2013, 11:29 PM   #164
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

BillJ wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post

Still, can you think of a better way?
Yeah, and I've mentioned it multiple times.

Don't support it financially if it doesn't meet your personal standards on the treatment of women.

But here's my problem, you're trying to fight a battle without a frame of reference. You're not a woman, you haven't been through what women have had to go through and it shows here. Badly. You're trying to fix a problem that all the women I know in the real world and most who are here don't think exists with this particular film.

You seem to be waaaayyyyy off base and don't either seem to realize it or don't care.
Lol - but you haven't proposed a solution to the problem - you are simply saying that I should make it a red line never to watch any TV or movie that I think is sexist? I'd watch about one movie every 3 years. Where would civil rights be if that was the solution that had been proposed? 'Black people I know are happy without the vote and if others don't like it they can leave the country?' Yes it was more extreme situation but the sexism of the Hollywood machine overall is still very evident to me and a lot of other people. There just isn't much of an alternative so we have to improve what we have.

You may know no women who find this to be an issue. I know women who DO find it to be an issue. I've also read several articles recently by other women who find it to be an issue. I've read comments from men who find it to be an issue.

I may be way off base but the position I've taken is after reading several articles that have provided statistics highlighting the problem that I ave myself observed. I have yet to read any article claiming there isn't a problem but I am willing to do so if you can find me one. Just because you don't find it to be an issue that you or your circle cares about doesn't mean it isn't an issue or that it isn't something that we should strive to improve.

I'm not a woman. I'm not part of an 'ethnic minority'. I am gay but does that give me special insight about inequality? Not in my opinion - the issue at hand doesn't discriminate against gay actors because they can play straight characters. Actresses on the other hand will rarely be cast as male characters. If I see women or ethnic minorities or homosexuals voicing a grievance and I think it has merit, I'll stand up for them in the same way that you are standing against them because you feel their grievance has no merit.

It's interesting to debate the two sides though.
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Old June 14 2013, 11:37 PM   #165
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Hollywood needs money, like all business. The quickest, most effective way to force change is to hit them in the pocketbook.
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