RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,149
Posts: 5,402,149
Members: 24,749
Currently online: 530
Newest member: Legends

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Time’s Orphan
By: Michelle on Aug 30

September-October Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Lee Passes
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Trek Merchandise Sale
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek #39 Villain Revealed
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Trek Big Bang Figures
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek Seekers Cover Art
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Fan Film Axanar Kickstarter Success
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Two New Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Actor Wins Emmy
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 14 2013, 06:20 AM   #31
scotpens
Vice Admiral
 
scotpens's Avatar
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Re: Has anyone else noticed the major plot flaw in TWOK?

Christopher wrote: View Post
. . . Not to mention that there's no way the explosion of a planet would've caused the next planet inward to somehow get pulled outward in its orbit and exactly duplicate the orbital parameters of the exploded planet -- not only orbital radius, but eccentricity, inclination, and argument of perihelion, or at least close enough that it would be exactly where Starfleet records said it would be a full 15 (or 18) years later.
And how in hell does a planet just blow up, anyway?

Sran wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote:
It's still a ridiculously simplistic code. I can't believe Starfleet doesn't have more sophisticated, less improvisational code protocols for communication on open channels. Come on, a fourth-grader could see through that one.
Who says they don't? That doesn't mean simpler codes can't be used. And Khan was hardly the only person fooled. Saavik realized Kirk and Spock were speaking in code only after Kirk cited the regulation pertaining to open-channel communication, the same Saavik who made a point to quote every rule in the book earlier in the film.
Which makes both Khan and Saavik seem incredibly stupid.
__________________
“All the universe or nothingness. Which shall it be, Passworthy? Which shall it be?”

Last edited by scotpens; June 14 2013 at 06:32 AM.
scotpens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 14 2013, 09:47 AM   #32
Sran
Fleet Captain
 
Sran's Avatar
 
Location: The Captain's Table
Re: Has anyone else noticed the major plot flaw in TWOK?

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
Remember the ENT episode Twilight. Where NX-01 and over 6000 humans settled on Ceti Alpha V. So even 100 years before "Space Seed". Earth Starfleet knew of the Ceti Alpha system.

While in a real world context. This is addition of an event into a gray area because it's a prequel series decades after Space Seed and TWOK. However in the context of the Star Trek Universe, Starfleet always knew about the Ceti Alpha system.
Those events also happened in an alternate timeline in which Earth was destroyed. Don't assume they would apply in the primary universe.

--Sran
__________________
"Many things seem clever to an imbecile." --Captain Thelin th'Valrass, USS Enterprise-- "The Chimes at Midnight"
Sran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 14 2013, 01:13 PM   #33
marksound
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Planet Carcazed
Re: Has anyone else noticed the major plot flaw in TWOK?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Again, I have a ton of respect for what you do and I'd like to know how you might have written it differently.
Ohh, that would take hours....
Ok. I'll be right here.
marksound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 14 2013, 02:40 PM   #34
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Has anyone else noticed the major plot flaw in TWOK?

Sran wrote: View Post
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear on this point. What I meant is that even though we've learned a great deal about outer space, there are many things we still don't know. For all the planets- be they actual or theoretical- that have been charted, we still don't know if any of them support life of a sophistication comparable to our own. That's what I meant in stating that our knowledge is limited.
Which has nothing to do with the point actually under discussion, which was whether it would be possible simply to detect how many planets there were in a star system. We absolutely do know enough to assess the likelihood of that, because it's something we can already do right now.



Who says they don't? That doesn't mean simpler codes can't be used. And Khan was hardly the only person fooled. Saavik realized Kirk and Spock were speaking in code only after Kirk cited the regulation pertaining to open-channel communication, the same Saavik who made a point to quote every rule in the book earlier in the film. If a Starfleet cadet can miss the obvious, why not a deranged psychopath?
The problem with that argument is that you're talking as though it's something that really happened and needs to be rationalized. But it didn't really happen. It's a scenario that Harve Bennett, Nicholas Meyer, and/or Jack B. Sowards made up when they were writing a movie script. And it wasn't a very good or plausible scenario. The writers could've done better, come up with something less lame. That's what I'm saying -- about this and quite a few other things.


I'd be interested in knowing how you'd have written TWOK differently. I don't mind setting aside a few hours to read your explanation.
But I can't spare those hours to figure it out, since I'm busy writing something else that I'm actually getting paid for. In fact, I'm wasting too much time on this discussion as it is.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 14 2013, 02:44 PM   #35
Sran
Fleet Captain
 
Sran's Avatar
 
Location: The Captain's Table
Re: Has anyone else noticed the major plot flaw in TWOK?

^Fair enough, Christopher. I won't keep you from your work.

--Sran
__________________
"Many things seem clever to an imbecile." --Captain Thelin th'Valrass, USS Enterprise-- "The Chimes at Midnight"
Sran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 14 2013, 03:29 PM   #36
Shazam!
Rear Admiral
 
Shazam!'s Avatar
 
Re: Has anyone else noticed the major plot flaw in TWOK?

Christopher wrote: View Post
How come Khan's followers, who were multiethnic adults
Where they? I haven't seen the episode in some time but screenshots seem to show a bunch of white dudes but like I said I haven't seen it in ages...

Regarding the Ceti Alpha V / VI debate, my view is that Starfleet saw a big bang and assumed that Ceti Alpha V had blown up which is why no-one checked on Khan in X number of years and why Chekov had no problem hanging around in that system.

CHEKOV: You lie! On Ceti Alpha Five there was life, a fair chance.
There WAS life... past tense. He thought it had blown up.
Shazam! is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 14 2013, 04:39 PM   #37
Amasov
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Has anyone else noticed the major plot flaw in TWOK?

I have something about the movie I want to bring up.

Why does Khan want revenge? It's said he wants revenge for Kirk marooning him/death of his wife, but Kirk marooned him there because of Khan's attempts to take over his ship.

It's Khan's fault he was left there. He started the whole thing. He has no right to seek revenge when it's his fault in the first place!
Amasov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 14 2013, 04:44 PM   #38
YJAGG
Lieutenant Commander
 
YJAGG's Avatar
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
Re: Has anyone else noticed the major plot flaw in TWOK?

As my Dad used to say - cause it's in the script
YJAGG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 14 2013, 05:20 PM   #39
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Has anyone else noticed the major plot flaw in TWOK?

Amasov wrote: View Post
Why does Khan want revenge? It's said he wants revenge for Kirk marooning him/death of his wife, but Kirk marooned him there because of Khan's attempts to take over his ship.

It's Khan's fault he was left there. He started the whole thing. He has no right to seek revenge when it's his fault in the first place!
Khan was vengeful because, as he said, "Admiral Kirk never bothered to check on our progress." If Kirk, or Starfleet, had monitored the colony, then they would've detected the disaster, provided aid, and maybe been able to prevent Marlena's later death.

Besides, Khan had been living in hellish conditions for years, enduring the grief of losing his wife and nineteen others of his people. That's plenty of time to nurture a grudge into an obsession, to get fixated on an idea even if it isn't objectively reasonable. He wanted someone to take out his rage on, someone to punish, and Kirk was the most convenient target.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 14 2013, 06:15 PM   #40
dub
Fleet Captain
 
dub's Avatar
 
Location: Location? What is this?
Re: Has anyone else noticed the major plot flaw in TWOK?

By the way, TWOK is still awesome! It's my favorite Trek movie to this day. I think it's easier for me to overlook some of the plot holes in this movie because the dialogue, the character and relationship moments, the acting, the score, directing, all of it made me actually care about these characters, care about what happens and actually made me interested in watching every moment of this film in comparison to some other Trek films. They reused footage and found ways around their budget, but they still made a film that's wonderful, left me on the edge of my seat, and in the end sobbing like a baby.

Christopher wrote: View Post
How can a tiny torpedo terraform an entire planet? How can a torpedo programmed to restructure the surface of an existing planet spontaneously adapt its programming to create a planet (and implicitly even a star) out of nebular gas?
This never bothered me. It's a simple concept and yes it's far-fetched, but this is sci-fi (in some cases fantasy). A transporter scattering your molecules across the universe and bringing them back together is equally far-fetched in my mind. I'm just glad they explained the idea without excessive technobabble.

Christopher wrote: View Post
How can the supposedly ingenious Khan fail to see through Spock's screamingly obvious "hours could seem like days" code?
This one has mildly bothered me over the years. Especially when you see Khan's reaction to Spock saying "by the book" in a strange way. His eyebrow kind of goes up, as if he's catching on to the fact that what Spock's saying is code for something else. But, it leads to some great fun later in the movie, so it's completely forgivable to me.

Christopher wrote: View Post
Why did the Ceti eel just leave Chekov instead of killing him, which according to Khan was the inevitable result?
Now my thought on this was it had something to do with the Reliant Captain killing himself (and the eel inside of him). Some kind of instinct was triggered and the eel escaped Checkov. That's my guess anyway.

Christopher wrote: View Post
Why does Scotty bring his bloody, dying cadet/nephew (depending on the cut) to the bridge instead of sickbay?
I agree with another person here that it was purely for dramatic effect. In this case, it wasn't a mistake or lazy writing. The scene could have easily been omitted and the story would still make sense. But this scene was intentionally added for the sole purpose of dramatic effect.

Christopher wrote: View Post
And how in the seven hells of Mongo can Kirk say he's "never faced death" after losing Gary Mitchell, Edith Keeler, Sam and Aurelan, Miramanee, and his unborn child??????
I believe Kirk said "I've never faced death. Not like this." In a sense, every death we face is different. Spock was very special to Kirk, so he hadn't faced death "like this" before. Not to say that the other people you mentioned weren't special to Kirk. But I think he was saying this death hit him especially hard and in a unique way unlike other countless deaths he had experienced before. Also, since this was a reaction to his son's assessment of Kirk's obvious lingering shock and pain, Kirk was speaking emotionally here. Instead of saying, "No son, you're wrong. I've faced death throughout my life and career...just not like this," he said it a different way: "no [in a sense you're actually right], I haven't faced death. Not like this." And then it all sort of ties back nicely to the Kobayashi Maru. So to me, that was a lovely bit of writing.
dub is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 14 2013, 06:49 PM   #41
Sran
Fleet Captain
 
Sran's Avatar
 
Location: The Captain's Table
Re: Has anyone else noticed the major plot flaw in TWOK?

Shazam! wrote: View Post
Regarding the Ceti Alpha V / VI debate, my view is that Starfleet saw a big bang and assumed that Ceti Alpha V had blown up which is why no-one checked on Khan in X number of years and why Chekov had no problem hanging around in that system.
I'm inclined to think Starfleet wasn't paying attention at all. The system would seem to be in relatively close proximity to Klingon space, so it wouldn't surprise me if the Federation avoided the area as much as possible. The only reason Reliant was nearby was because it needed to find a test site for Genesis.

--Sran
__________________
"Many things seem clever to an imbecile." --Captain Thelin th'Valrass, USS Enterprise-- "The Chimes at Midnight"
Sran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 14 2013, 07:18 PM   #42
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Has anyone else noticed the major plot flaw in TWOK?

dub wrote: View Post
By the way, TWOK is still awesome! It's my favorite Trek movie to this day. I think it's easier for me to overlook some of the plot holes in this movie because the dialogue, the character and relationship moments, the acting, the score, directing, all of it made me actually care about these characters, care about what happens and actually made me interested in watching every moment of this film in comparison to some other Trek films.
I get that in principle, and it's the reason I'm able to enjoy the Abrams films despite their plot and logic holes. But this film is one I don't enjoy that much, for a variety of reasons. I feel it damaged the franchise by replacing the intelligent, plausible science fiction that Roddenberry aspired to (but often fell short of achieving) with cartoony melodrama and overblown action. I find it too violent and bloody for my tastes, yet at the same time extremely sluggish in pacing (and I'm saying this as someone who likes ST:TMP).


This never bothered me. It's a simple concept and yes it's far-fetched, but this is sci-fi (in some cases fantasy). A transporter scattering your molecules across the universe and bringing them back together is equally far-fetched in my mind.
The fact that transporters exist in the Trek universe is the one thing that makes Genesis remotely swallowable in that context, since it's the same principle of disassembling matter and reassembling it, just in a new form. But the sheer power involved to transform a whole planet demands something bigger than what we saw. I read the novelization before seeing the movie, and I imagined the Genesis torpedo as some enormous missile. When I finally saw what a dinky little thing it was, I thought it was ridiculous.


Christopher wrote: View Post
Why does Scotty bring his bloody, dying cadet/nephew (depending on the cut) to the bridge instead of sickbay?
I agree with another person here that it was purely for dramatic effect. In this case, it wasn't a mistake or lazy writing. The scene could have easily been omitted and the story would still make sense. But this scene was intentionally added for the sole purpose of dramatic effect.
And that is exactly my problem with the storytelling priorities of the film. It wasn't just "dramatic," it was over-the-top, corny melodrama, like everything else that passes for dramatic in the film (Kirk's "KHAAAAAAANNNN!!!" is the most embarrassingly corny moment in the history of the franchise). The original goal behind Star Trek was to approach science fiction as maturely and naturalistically as any cop show or courtroom drama or medical drama of the day -- to get away from the exaggeration and corniness and broad caricatures of previous SFTV and do a show that was about believable human beings doing jobs that just happened to be in outer space in the future. ST:TMP was in the same vein -- going for the same kind of cool, understated naturalism as Robert Wise's The Andromeda Strain, although perhaps taking the "understated" part a bit too far. But TWOK reversed that and turned ST into a broad, cartoony, larger-than-life melodrama, and I think that betrays the original intention behind the franchise. It might be a fun film in its way, but it's not a believable film, either on a technical level or a character level, and that's a failure to live up to the original goals of the series.


I believe Kirk said "I've never faced death. Not like this." In a sense, every death we face is different. Spock was very special to Kirk, so he hadn't faced death "like this" before. Not to say that the other people you mentioned weren't special to Kirk. But I think he was saying this death hit him especially hard and in a unique way unlike other countless deaths he had experienced before. Also, since this was a reaction to his son's assessment of Kirk's obvious lingering shock and pain, Kirk was speaking emotionally here. Instead of saying, "No son, you're wrong. I've faced death throughout my life and career...just not like this," he said it a different way: "no [in a sense you're actually right], I haven't faced death. Not like this." And then it all sort of ties back nicely to the Kobayashi Maru. So to me, that was a lovely bit of writing.
I think that's bending over backwards to justify a line that doesn't really add up. Again, it's a matter of believability -- I can't believe that Kirk would feel that way about it, that he'd dismiss all the other terrible tragedies he's been through as if they never happened.


Sran wrote: View Post
I'm inclined to think Starfleet wasn't paying attention at all. The system would seem to be in relatively close proximity to Klingon space, so it wouldn't surprise me if the Federation avoided the area as much as possible.
Based on what? There's nothing in the movie to suggest that. Star Trek Star Charts shows it as being about as far from the outer reaches of Klingon space as Earth is from the nearer portions, but that's as of the 24th century; in the 2280s, Klingon space probably didn't extend as far in that direction.

Perhaps one can assume from TSFS that the Mutara Sector was relatively close to Klingon territory, given that Kruge was able to get to it without being challenged, but we don't know how far that was from Ceti Alpha.

And it still doesn't change that the speed of light is finite, allowing you to observe things that happened years or decades or centuries ago if you're at the right distance. If the explosion happened 15 years earlier, then the Reliant should've seen it happen as soon as they came within 15 light-years of the system. And even if they missed it, they certainly would've been able to detect the aftermath, the remains of the exploded planet. There'd be a huge cloud of debris spread out along the planet's orbit. There's just no way they could've missed that.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 14 2013, 08:05 PM   #43
marksound
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Planet Carcazed
Re: Has anyone else noticed the major plot flaw in TWOK?

All good points, but how could it have been done better?

To paraphrase an old country doctor, "I'm a fan, not an astrophysicisisist!" I think the vast majority of people who watch Star Trek and plunk down their hard earned cash for a movie ticket just want to see Kirk, Spock and Bones do stuff. These relatively minor problems to people like me are just that. Minor. Give us a decent movie that takes our mind off the crap of everyday life for a couple of hours and we're good.

I'm surprised that people still argue about this stuff all these years later.
marksound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 14 2013, 09:42 PM   #44
Sran
Fleet Captain
 
Sran's Avatar
 
Location: The Captain's Table
Re: Has anyone else noticed the major plot flaw in TWOK?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Perhaps one can assume from TSFS that the Mutara Sector was relatively close to Klingon territory, given that Kruge was able to get to it without being challenged, but we don't know how far that was from Ceti Alpha.
This is what I'm basing it on. Also recall Chekov's line in TWOK, that Reliant was en route to Regula One and would "be there in three days." Kirk later remarks that Enterprise is "the only ship in the quadrant" when discussing the mission with Spock. Now, quadrant was often used in place of sector in TOS, so maybe that's what he meant. In any case, if Reliant could reach Regula in a matter of days, it couldn't have been that far from Klingon space.

--Sran
__________________
"Many things seem clever to an imbecile." --Captain Thelin th'Valrass, USS Enterprise-- "The Chimes at Midnight"
Sran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 14 2013, 11:22 PM   #45
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Has anyone else noticed the major plot flaw in TWOK?

Except that ships in ST always travel at the speed of plot. Travel time has never been a remotely reliable indicator of distance. Hell, three movies later it took them less than half an hour to reach the center of the galaxy. Even if we ignore that (yes, please, let's ignore that), in the sixth movie it doesn't take long at all for the Enterprise to get from Earth to the Klingon border and for the arrested Kirk and McCoy to subsequently be taken to Kronos (one assumes) for trial and then shipped to Rura Penthe. So by those standards, a 3-day journey could represent a pretty significant distance.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
star trek ii, twok

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:32 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.