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Old June 14 2013, 04:04 PM   #151
Locutus of Bored
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
All that we know is that Kirk distinctly says he "reprogrammed the simulation" and "changed the conditions of the test to make it possible to rescue the ship" in TWoK. It's explicitly stated in both cases that he reprogrammed the computer to allow him to win. Anything else you're tossing in there to make TWoK Kirk look better in this situation because of your dislike of ST09 is just baseless speculation.
No, nuTrek did not exist when TWOK came out. When I-- and everybody I've ever known or spoken to until this thread-- understood is that Kirk found a way to beat the no-win scenario. He came up with his own option that the Academy had not considered. He beat the conditions of the test. That was the whole point of the scene and why it was punctuated with the unexpected rescue. The idea that he simply hacked the program and stuck in a dumb-ass cheat code never occurred to anybody. How would that earn him a commendation? If anything, retconning what PrimeKirk did is an attempt to make excuses for the reboot.
It's not retconning anything. It's simply not filling in the blanks with a bunch of bullshit we can't possibly know and insisting it's fact.

It earned Kirk a commendation because as Spock said "Your final solution was, shall we say... unique" and Kirk reiterated "It had the virtue of never having been tried." The commendation was for "original thinking"; thinking outside the box. Every previous student just takes the test and accepts the loss, but Kirk went so far as hacking the program because he couldn't accept that.

It possibly could have resulted in the same disciplinary hearing nuKirk goes through, and since it would presumably not have been cut off at the start of proceedings by a crisis Kirk could have defended his point more clearly, thus convincing Starfleet that this was not a simple case of cheating but rather a cadet taking extraordinary and creative measures to solve a problem.

The whole movie is full of Kirk using creative little cheats and cat and mouse games like that. Kirk using the prefix code to lower Reliant's shields. Kirk and Spock "lying" --using the (world's worst) code about Enterprise's repairs to turn hours into days and fool Khan-- unlike "by-the-book" Lt. Saavik. Kirk going into the nebula to cloud their tactical displays and render shields useless, thus making the odds even. The Kobayashi Maru test wasn't an isolated reference, it was one of the main themes reiterated over the course of the movie: How you face death, and how it will eventually catch up with you no matter how long you cheat it.

Kirk didn't seem offended by his son's accusation of cheating on the Kobayashi Maru test; almost as if he'd heard it many times before.

The only actual supposition on the part of the filmmakers in ST09 was that Kirk used a tactic similar to the prefix code in TWoK to disable the Klingon ships' shields. But it's a logical supposition seeing as how Kirk might have thought of the prefix code in the first place in TWoK because the KM Test was already on his mind before and during the mission. Everything else about the hacking and changing the conditions of the test and some people considering it cheating is spelled out right in dialogue from TWoK.
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Old June 14 2013, 04:43 PM   #152
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

stj wrote: View Post
The quotes are nested so confusingly I've lost track of who originally posted this. But it was in Locutus of Bored post.

Kirk was taking the test for a third time when he finally reprogrammed it, so he knew what it was about.
Locutus of Bored goes on:

Kirk in TWoK must have known the test was coming up or else he wouldn't have had time to reprogram the simulation. The same goes for Kirk in ST09 (plus, Kirk and McCoy and later Kirk and Uhura were discussing taking the test the next day).
As seen, the claim that the original Kirk must have known overlooks his own post. I've forgotten whether we saw the new Kirk's reaction to "failing" the test. But the real point, inadvertently made to be sure, is that the test makes no sense if the student walks into it knowing, even in rough outline, what's going to happen that day.
How is that at all contradictory? I was simply demonstrating to the poster I was debating with (not you) multiple reasons why the KM Test can not reasonably be considered a secret from the cadets beforehand:

1) Students are going to talk about the unfair (in their opinion) and unwinable test they had to take with other students, with family, and with friends. There's simply no way something that significant can be kept a secret. It's like students not talking about taking the SATs.

2) Students are given advanced warning that they are going to take the test and know that it's a no-win scenario. Kirk and McCoy discussed the nature of the test and that you're supposed to lose the day before in ST09. Kirk and Uhura discussed it the day before in her quarters. Prime Universe Kirk knew he had to take the test in advance or else he wouldn't have been able to "reprogram the simulation" and "change the conditions of the test."

3) It's obviously not a secret because they give the same test to students multiple times. Both nuKirk and Prime Kirk were on their third try taking the test. Even if you somehow kept it a secret from the third time cadet beforehand (which IMO is impossible and not supported by other evidence: see above), as soon as the cadet was in the simulation and it became obvious that no matter what you did the enemy was in God Mode and would defeat you, the psychological "surprise" would be foiled. The same goes for the cadets who heard about the test through rumors; as soon as they saw that the enemy can't be defeated they would know what was happening.

Which is why I don't think it's a surprise at all. I think knowing the unwinable KM Test is coming up and being evaluated on how you handle the stress of that knowledge is all part of the test. It's about weeding out the cadets who freak out or on the opposite extreme don't take it seriously enough and finding the ones who stay calm and cool even knowing what they're about to face. Kirk went an entirely different way with it though and actually found a way to win, hence the commendation.
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Old June 14 2013, 04:57 PM   #153
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

Sindatur wrote: View Post
RJD, could you elaborate on what program change PrimeKirk could've made that you would find commendable in contrast to what NuKirk did in his change to the program?
The first scene in Wrath of Khan established how cadets were meant to think of the Kobayashi Maru test--via Saavik. Saavik immediately protests to Kirk that the test was unfair. My guess is that even if no cadet has ever beat it, that they enter into the test feeling like it's possible, almost like it's some sort of urban myth. Regardless of cadet-to-cadet chatter in JJ Trek, I think it was like a hazing ritual of sorts in which cadets know they shouldn't "spoil" the ones coming after them about the trick-nature of the test. They may actually enjoy seeing the younger cadets' frustration. Certainly if it were common knowledge, Saavik would not have protested the way she did. However, all officers, having gone through it, know the secret. Kind of like knowing Santa and the tooth-fairy aren't real.

So I think prime Kirk believed that the simulation wasn't a test of character, but a traditional skill-test, just as Saavik did, and that when he rigged the simulator, he didn't want to handicap it to the point where he didn't have to break a sweat. He only wanted to lower the difficulty enough to make it possible to win--but you'd still have to be really good as a fledgling captain. This would be cheating, technically, but really it's just bending the rules out of Kirk's innate sense of fair-play.

That's not what nu Kirk does. Nu Kirk cheats in a Bart Simpson sort of way--to avoid having to exhibit any leadership skills whatsoever. It's a much more egregious rule-breaking, and while it endears the audience to Kirk as some sort of too-cool-for-school "bad boy" it also makes him out to just not be true leadership material.
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Old June 14 2013, 05:01 PM   #154
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
He came up with his own option that the Academy had not considered. He beat the conditions of the test.
No. As already pointed out upthread, in Kirk's own words, from TWOK:

TWOK wrote:
KIRK: I changed the conditions of the test. I got a commendation for original thinking. ...I don't like to lose.
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Old June 14 2013, 05:04 PM   #155
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

mos6507 wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
RJD, could you elaborate on what program change PrimeKirk could've made that you would find commendable in contrast to what NuKirk did in his change to the program?
The first scene in Wrath of Khan established how cadets were meant to think of the Kobayashi Maru test--via Saavik. Saavik immediately protests to Kirk that the test was unfair. My guess is that even if no cadet has ever beat it, that they enter into the test feeling like it's possible, almost like it's some sort of urban myth. It may be a hazing ritual of sorts in which cadets are discouraged from "spoiling" the ones coming after them about the trick-nature of the test. Certainly if it were common knowledge, Saavik would not have protested the way she did. However, all officers, having gone through it, know the secret. Kind of like knowing Santa and the tooth-fairy aren't real.

So I think prime Kirk believed that the simulation wasn't a test of character, but a traditional skill-test, just as Saavik did, and that when he rigged the simulator, he didn't want to handicap it to the point where he didn't have to break a sweat. He only wanted to lower the difficulty enough to make it possible to win--but you'd still have to be really good as a fledgling captain. This would be cheating, technically, but really it's just bending the rules out of Kirk's innate sense of fair-play.

That's not what nu Kirk does. Nu Kirk cheats in a Bart Simpson sort of way--to avoid having to exhibit any leadership skills whatsoever. It's a much more egregious rule-breaking, and while it endears the audience to Kirk as some sort of hip "bad boy" it also makes him out to just not be true leadership material.
There is no degrees in cheating or hacking and changing the program. If you do it you're just as guilty as anyone else who does it. If there is honor in PrimeKirk's actions, there was honor in NuKirk's. If there is dishonor in NuKirk's actions, there is dishonor in PrimeKirk's.

These gyrations to make it seem like there are degrees to cheating in order to make PrimeKirk look good and NuKirk look like an insult to the character Kirk are going to hurt someone's neck.
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Old June 14 2013, 05:08 PM   #156
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

I have a lot of problems with the scene in Star Trek 09 because Kirk is just ridiculously, cartoonishly cocky in it. I'd always assumed Kirk had hacked and cheated to pass, but at least in a more subtle way. I assumed his cheat allowed them to save the Kobayashi Maru in a realistic manner while he played it dead straight.

Having him munch on an apple, barely pay attention and do "funny" gun signs was too much for me. That just isn't my Kirk.

It's not a big deal for me though as it's a fairly disposable scene.
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Old June 14 2013, 05:25 PM   #157
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

DalekJim wrote: View Post
I have a lot of problems with the scene in Star Trek 09 because Kirk is just ridiculously, cartoonishly cocky in it. I'd always assumed Kirk had hacked and cheated to pass, but at least in a more subtle way. I assumed his cheat allowed them to save the Kobayashi Maru in a realistic manner while he played it dead straight.

Having him munch on an apple, barely pay attention and do "funny" gun signs was too much for me. That just isn't my Kirk.

It's not a big deal for me though as it's a fairly disposable scene.
The scene is designed to show what Kirk thinks of the test. It's also consistent/parallel with Kirk in TWOK.
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Old June 14 2013, 05:57 PM   #158
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
DalekJim wrote: View Post
I have a lot of problems with the scene in Star Trek 09 because Kirk is just ridiculously, cartoonishly cocky in it. I'd always assumed Kirk had hacked and cheated to pass, but at least in a more subtle way. I assumed his cheat allowed them to save the Kobayashi Maru in a realistic manner while he played it dead straight.

Having him munch on an apple, barely pay attention and do "funny" gun signs was too much for me. That just isn't my Kirk.

It's not a big deal for me though as it's a fairly disposable scene.
The scene is designed to show what Kirk thinks of the test. It's also consistent/parallel with Kirk in TWOK.
Exactly. There are legitimate ways to gripe about the Abrams films but these asinine speculations about things we have NO evidence for (the "decent cheating" of Prime Kirk) in order to create a false comparison with what we actually have evidence for (the Abrams version of the test) and place the latter in a bad light is, frankly, bullshit.
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Old June 14 2013, 06:11 PM   #159
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

^That's a bit backwards. TWoK gives room for a much more heroic interpretation, while the newer movie tells the absolute least heroic of these interpretations, in a definite manner. So it can be shit, while TWoK is ambiguous thus not shit in a similar way. Unless you go by guilty until proven innocent, which would serve no purpose but move bad light away from the new movie, in an illogical manner. ST09 did a thing people didn't like while TWoK did not.

Sindatur wrote: View Post
There is no degrees in cheating or hacking and changing the program. If you do it you're just as guilty as anyone else who does it.
The post you quoted explained two different degrees of cheating, in utter clarity. Is it all crimes you think like that, or is there a personal thing for cheating? Any way it's not reasonable.

And I'm going to do something completely else now.

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Old June 14 2013, 07:12 PM   #160
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
DalekJim wrote: View Post
I have a lot of problems with the scene in Star Trek 09 because Kirk is just ridiculously, cartoonishly cocky in it. I'd always assumed Kirk had hacked and cheated to pass, but at least in a more subtle way. I assumed his cheat allowed them to save the Kobayashi Maru in a realistic manner while he played it dead straight.

Having him munch on an apple, barely pay attention and do "funny" gun signs was too much for me. That just isn't my Kirk.

It's not a big deal for me though as it's a fairly disposable scene.
The scene is designed to show what Kirk thinks of the test. It's also consistent/parallel with Kirk in TWOK.
Am I the only one who thinks Kirk comes off as quite cocky when he's explaining what he did in TWOK? Which is the way I would want an actor to play the scene.
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Old June 14 2013, 07:33 PM   #161
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

BillJ wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
DalekJim wrote: View Post
I have a lot of problems with the scene in Star Trek 09 because Kirk is just ridiculously, cartoonishly cocky in it. I'd always assumed Kirk had hacked and cheated to pass, but at least in a more subtle way. I assumed his cheat allowed them to save the Kobayashi Maru in a realistic manner while he played it dead straight.

Having him munch on an apple, barely pay attention and do "funny" gun signs was too much for me. That just isn't my Kirk.

It's not a big deal for me though as it's a fairly disposable scene.
The scene is designed to show what Kirk thinks of the test. It's also consistent/parallel with Kirk in TWOK.
Am I the only one who thinks Kirk comes off as quite cocky when he's explaining what he did in TWOK? Which is the way I would want an actor to play the scene.
He's very cocky. He's just played Khan and everyone on Regula I and is enjoying it.
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Old June 14 2013, 07:40 PM   #162
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

DalekJim wrote: View Post
I have a lot of problems with the scene in Star Trek 09 because Kirk is just ridiculously, cartoonishly cocky in it.

Having him munch on an apple, barely pay attention and do "funny" gun signs was too much for me. That just isn't my Kirk.
That's EXACTLY your Kirk, you just don't want to admit it because you guys have a hard on about ST09.

It's like you haven't even seen the Genesis Cave scene. Kirk is extremely cocky, munching on an apple, looking around to see how impressed people are with his story, exaggeratedly flipping out his communicator and saying "well, alllllllright!."

Let also not forget that Kirk was allowing his companions to think that they were stranded there when he knew they would be beaming up shortly. Why? He wasn't obeying coded communications protocols then. Obviously the real world reason was to keep it secret from the audience, but that doesn't change the in-universe implication.

Then there's also the fact that Kirk (and Spock) keep rubbing Saavik's nose in the fact that she's a by-the-book stick in the mud, which is particularly egregious considering if they had just listened to her earlier and raised shields the Reliant wouldn't have gotten the drop on the Enterprise in the first place.

I love TWoK, it's my favorite Trek movie, but Kirk was totally full of himself and showing off in parts, so to say that kind of behavior is "not your Kirk" and was made up for nuKirk is just baffling to me.
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Old June 14 2013, 07:40 PM   #163
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

stj wrote: View Post



Please keep up. The original Kirk said explicitly "make it possible." That is, "could." We saw what the new Kirk did, which is guarantee he "would." Aside from the lunacy of rewriting English so that "could" and "would" are synonyms, your only chance to defend your position is to hold that the original Kirk's narration was unreliable. This is still a forced interpretation. And one that so far as I know never occurred to anyone before they needed to defend the scene in the new movie.
It's hard to keep up with lunacy, but I'll try.

"Make it possible". So, a "possible" way to win is to program the simulation so the Klingon ships drop their shields? Would that work? Yes. Could it work? yes again. The only one reading into originalKirk's narration is you.
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Old June 14 2013, 07:46 PM   #164
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
The scene is designed to show what Kirk thinks of the test. It's also consistent/parallel with Kirk in TWOK.
Am I the only one who thinks Kirk comes off as quite cocky when he's explaining what he did in TWOK? Which is the way I would want an actor to play the scene.
He's very cocky. He's just played Khan and everyone on Regula I and is enjoying it.
Yes, totally. He's really enjoying that apple, too. He's the only one who wanted to eat, the only one who wasn't really worried. Survival is the first order of business, my ass. He probably wanted to bounce off the walls.
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Old June 14 2013, 07:49 PM   #165
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
...but Kirk was totally full of himself and showing off in parts, so to say that kind of behavior is "not your Kirk" and was made up for nuKirk is just baffling to me.
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