RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,545
Posts: 5,513,324
Members: 25,144
Currently online: 479
Newest member: ShadowL

TrekToday headlines

Two New Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Dec 26

Captain Kirk’s Boldest Missions
By: T'Bonz on Dec 25

Trek Paper Clips
By: T'Bonz on Dec 24

Sargent Passes
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

QMx Trek Insignia Badges
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

And The New Director Of Star Trek 3 Is…
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

TV Alert: Pine On Tonight Show
By: T'Bonz on Dec 22

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old June 13 2013, 10:16 PM   #121
JarodRussell
Vice Admiral
 
JarodRussell's Avatar
 
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

What was it with that Khan head squishing thing anyway. Like it was his only finishing move. It's so inefficient.


Back to topic. Taking something that is extraordinary in this day and age but not have the characters talk about it is the best way to do it, in my opinion.

Think of all the films that, for instance, had a black president before Obama got elected. In none of these films it's a big deal. Only behind the scenes it is. Not only does that make these films innovative, it also makes them timeless. Because IF some day it won't be a big deal anymore, you can still watch the films without having to cringe how stupid society was back then.
JarodRussell is offline  
Old June 13 2013, 10:17 PM   #122
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

CrazyHorse89 wrote: View Post

I think Star Trek could make a tiny dent in all of this. A really tiny one; but you've got to start somewhere. Why not there?
Because I simply don't expect my entertainment to be in the business of curing societies ills, I expect it to entertain me.

If you want change, make a statement: go work in women's shelters, climb the ladder of big business/government and make changes. But bitching about entertainment isn't going to change a thing as long as your going out and buying tickets.

Bitching about it constantly on a message board is going to create as much change as me going out and pissing in the street.
__________________
"...the most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom, is I do not know." - Lt. Commander Data, "Where Silence Has Lease"
BillJ is online now  
Old June 13 2013, 10:17 PM   #123
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
What was it with that Khan head squishing thing anyway. Like it was his only finishing move. It's so inefficient.
I pointed that out to my wife when we saw it together.
__________________
"...the most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom, is I do not know." - Lt. Commander Data, "Where Silence Has Lease"
BillJ is online now  
Old June 13 2013, 10:18 PM   #124
CrazyHorse89
Lieutenant
 
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
How about if it's EVERY piece of 2 hours entertainment they're likely to see? Because the latest study suggests that girls might as well give up on a equal chance at a career alongside men and aspire to be moms and girlfriends instead.
So you should definitely keep your daughters away from Star Trek, then, which features two different women who are both genius-level experts in their field in a way that makes their male counterparts look like useless chumps.

And even puts the "be a girlfriend!" thing into context with Uhura's line
"It's not just me, the Captain thinks so too!"
And Kirk:
"No, no, don't drag me into this! Seriously, though, she's right."

This is, in fact, the first time in Trek history that Uhura was a full member Team Enterprise in every sense that someone could be part of it. It almost makes up for the TFF "Fan Dance" scene.

And nobody is suggesting that every movie has to have a 50/50 gender divide but a franchise like Star Trek is a golden opportunity to do so and they screwed it up big.
How do you figure? Just counting the number of females on the bridge, it looks like about 30/70. Carol Marcus is a physicist and a weapons specialist and doesn't get all screamy until 1) Khan breaks her leg and 2) Khan sqishes her father's head like a watermelon (hell, I woulda screamed too).

Speaking of the Bechdel Test, I'm reminded that Insurrection actually managed to pass it due to this awesome piece of dialog
TROI: And have you noticed how your boobs have started to firm up?
CRUSHER: Not that we care about such things in this day and age.
TROI: Uh huh.
How inspiring!
I'd just like to point out (since I'm on Pauln6's side of the divide) that I would never defend Star Trek: Insurrection on any point.
CrazyHorse89 is offline  
Old June 13 2013, 10:19 PM   #125
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

JarodRussell wrote: View Post


It's not about the quota, folks, it's about the content.
Oh my God! Somebody actually gets it.
__________________
"...the most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom, is I do not know." - Lt. Commander Data, "Where Silence Has Lease"
BillJ is online now  
Old June 13 2013, 10:20 PM   #126
Ovation
Vice Admiral
 
Location: La Belle Province or The Green Mountain State (depends on the day of the week)
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Ovation wrote: View Post

I think there are exactly as many women as the filmmakers intended to have and I have zero problem with that (meaning I have zero problem with the filmmakers producing a film that reflects what they, rather than anyone else, wants). I would have zero problem with that if the ratio of men to women in the film was reversed, if that is what the filmmakers wanted. What I don't want is for any artistic production to decide that it is more important to meet the requirements laid down by the Committee of the Way Things Ought to Be than to put out what they want.

Art of any type--commercial, fine, big-budget, tiny budget, (fill in the blank)--should always reflect the desires of the artist (in the broad sense of "makers of the art"). Artist wants to make a Tarantino-esque bloodbath in the Trek universe? That's ok. Wants to make a version with an explicitly pro-feminist message and theme? That's ok. Wants to make an action-adventure movie just like the one that came out last month in the cinema? That's ok. Do I have to like each option equally? Nope. It is entirely my choice whether to like, dislike, love, hate, viscerally loathe, adore…the film (or other artwork) in question. BUT, I have no right to expect satisfaction on my terms. I have the right to partake of the artistic endeavour and judge it according to my views. The artist has the right (one I will vociferously defend) to put out exactly what he or she wants--subject to whatever praise or criticism it engenders once in the public space. What I will NEVER countenance is the idea that an artist has an obligation to satisfy an arbitrary set of criteria to meet the expectations of the self-appointed guardians of The Way Things Ought to Be. When that becomes a requirement, it stops being art (good, bad or other) and becomes propaganda. The world has enough propaganda already, thanks.
God damn, this is a beautiful post.
And it's in the true spirit of Star Trek! Prejudice should be fought in all its forms... oh no, wait... It's also crap. The producers aren't deliberately choosing to use male characters for artistic reasons, they're simply tone deaf to gender balance.
The why is irrelevant. It remains their choice. You have NO right to expect satisfaction on your terms. You can hope for it, be disappointed when it doesn't happen--still aren't entitled to it.

The post is advocating the worst type of status quo - it's ok to make a movie with all the black folks are downtrodden menials if that's your artistic intent? Thank the stars Uhura survived that kind of crap.
Yes. It is entirely ok--if that is what the filmmaker wants. Of course, the filmmaker is also subject to all the criticism such a choice would generate. But the filmmaker should NEVER be prevented from that choice because it doesn't meet someone else's expectations.

But more to the point, since when has gender equality been arbitrary? It's one of the most fundamental things that should have been rectified in Star Trek's utopian future decades ago. TMP probably came the closest but even there all the security guards were male.
The filmmaker doesn't have to take any of that into account. He can't expect to avoid criticism about it, either. And representations of gender balance in art are always arbitrary. You might believe that gender balance won't be an issue in some utopian future (I don't find Star Trek all that utopian, incidentally), but that doesn't mean it won't be.

Lastly, I don't expect fiction and entertainment to present me with a society that meets my expectations of justice, equality and so on. Nice if it does (as long as that's what the artist wants AND as long as it makes sense within the artwork). But it was a requirement, I would enjoy a far, far narrower set of artwork (in the broad sense of art) than I actually do. I am quite capable of distinguishing between fictional situations and reality. Watching the Three Stooges did not lead me to start banging people on the head with frying pans and watching non gender-balanced fiction did not turn me into a misogynist. Doesn't work that way.

You seem to think my endorsement of an artist's right to create what he or she wants, regardless of the expectations of others, represents an endorsement of all the resulting choices. Two different things.

CrazyHorse89 wrote: View Post
Ovation wrote: View Post
CrazyHorse89 wrote: View Post
The difference is that Star Trek has always had some kind of agenda at its heart: feminist, liberal, egalitarian, whatever. If you sell your programme or film as a 'progressive vision of the future', then don't use women as sexual objects to ogle at.
Again, entirely up to the filmmaker. And why specify women here? Kirk is set up in the same fashion in each film. Why not, especially in reference to a "progressive future", say "don't use people as sexual objects to ogle at."?

Star Trek Into Darkness and Star Trek 2009 are not overtly sexist, but they certainly contain problematic gender dynamics. I don't think modern-Trek should treat one half of the population as window dressing or (God knows the old versions certainly did). It's boring, it's anachronistic, and it's letting down young boys and girls.
Not really. What would really be "letting down young boys and girls" are parents who allow entertainment to substitute for the hard work of teaching values to their children. If any parent feels strongly enough about a particular value, they will take time to pass that value on to their children and ensure they've understood it. If that is done, then the children should not be so easily swayed away from that value by a 2 hour bit of entertainment. Indeed, if the lesson is well-learned, the children will raise the value conflict on their own (if they're too young, the parents are free to point out the conflict). However, the filmmakers have NO OBLIGATION to produce something that won't "let down" any particular "young boy or girl". No obligation whatsoever. We, as the audience, are NOT entitled to be satisfied on that score--ever. We merely have the right to agree or disagree with what we see and say so.
Who said anything about obligations?

Unfortunately, children and adolescents are very impressionable and live in a world of 24-hour media which presents masculinity and femininity, men and women, and sexuality in a very specific way. Even with the best parenting and the strongest will, children cannot help but internalise and externalise the culture around them. Wouldn't it be brilliant if Star Trek, a show about the future, and a semi-utopian future at that, actually had a place for women who were not glorified mannequins?

Now, that's my opinion. I don't think that all movies should do this or that because it's politically correct. What I'm saying is that I think certain films could do this and that in a bold, fresh, and innovative way. A way, coincidentally, that gives young people a positive alternative to the status-quo.
I agree. I simply don't think it should be done because there is an obligation to do so and while you may not specifically feel obligation is at play, it is certainly at play in a number of things I've read, here and elsewhere, in relation to the issue of gender balance, gender dynamics and so on in this film.
Ovation is offline  
Old June 13 2013, 10:22 PM   #127
Ovation
Vice Admiral
 
Location: La Belle Province or The Green Mountain State (depends on the day of the week)
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

BillJ wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Because the latest study suggests that girls might as well give up on a equal chance at a career alongside men and aspire to be moms and girlfriends instead.
Funny stuff. My wife works for a major tele-communications company while I stay home, which is becoming more and more common here in the States. My daughter is studying Criminal Justice with an eye on a career in Law Enforcement.

So... I honestly don't know what planet your living on.
My wife is a highly placed senior director of clinical research at a pharma company while I work part time by teaching mostly online courses in order to be the stay at home parent. Funny how that works.

Gotta go make dinner now. Later.

Last edited by Ovation; June 13 2013 at 10:36 PM.
Ovation is offline  
Old June 13 2013, 10:23 PM   #128
JarodRussell
Vice Admiral
 
JarodRussell's Avatar
 
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

The main problem regarding gender balance in nuTrek is that they took the characters of a show from the 60s and transported it into the 21st century. That's why you have the black girl in miniskirts still acting basically as the receptionist (and love interest), but nothing more substantial.

Then there's the sexism coming from the writers, because they think the story and script are elevated by threesomes and women dressing down for no reason during a dialogue.

Deep Space Nine had better gender and ethnic balance.
Voyager had better gender and ethnic balance. Heck, Captain and chief engineer were finally women. Only in season 4 they lost the ball when they introduced Sex Object of Nine in skintight catsuits to boobs the ratings, err, boost the ratings.


Let's not talk about Enterprise, because that was silly. Hoshi, the receptionist again, and T'Boob. And then the mirror universe episode where they suddenly run around with bare bellies to sex it up.

Last edited by JarodRussell; June 13 2013 at 10:39 PM.
JarodRussell is offline  
Old June 13 2013, 10:24 PM   #129
CrazyHorse89
Lieutenant
 
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

BillJ wrote: View Post
CrazyHorse89 wrote: View Post

I think Star Trek could make a tiny dent in all of this. A really tiny one; but you've got to start somewhere. Why not there?
Because I simply don't expect my entertainment to be in the business of curing societies ills, I expect it to entertain me.

If you want change, make a statement: go work in women's shelters, climb the ladder of big business/government and make changes. But bitching about entertainment isn't going to change a thing as long as your going out and buying tickets.

Bitching about it constantly on a message board is going to create as much change as me going out and pissing in the street.
Actually, the media is a very important site for all of these issues. It has a huge impact on the way that young people view themselves, others, and the world around them. Star Trek is not a major offender on this front, but it has certainly had its fair share of minor infractions. I enjoy it-in all its incarnations-and that's why the gender thing bothers me.

And this is not bitching. I'm simply having a discussion about a certain aspect of a certain film with a number of interesting and enlightened people, many of whom I happen to disagree with. If everybody took your suggestion as a benchmark, nobody would discuss anything.

Last edited by CrazyHorse89; June 13 2013 at 10:34 PM.
CrazyHorse89 is offline  
Old June 13 2013, 10:33 PM   #130
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

CrazyHorse89 wrote: View Post

If one took up your suggestion as a benchmark, nobody would discuss anything about anything.
You obviously haven't noticed the dozens of other threads about this movie. There becomes a time when someone runs a subject completely into the ground to the point that people begin to push back, not because they hate women or think they should be subservient but because the discussion serves no real purpose without people being willing to back up what they say.

If I thought Star Trek Into Darkness showed women in a poor way, I wouldn't buy tickets to it. I wouldn't buy tickets for my wife (who is a pretty staunch feminist, laughs at this discussion and the Alice Eve underwear controversy), my mother-in-law and tell my daughter she should go see it.

There are totally times one should be willing to take a stand and refuse to support something because it offends them. This simply isn't one of those times.
__________________
"...the most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom, is I do not know." - Lt. Commander Data, "Where Silence Has Lease"
BillJ is online now  
Old June 13 2013, 10:33 PM   #131
Pauln6
Rear Admiral
 
Pauln6's Avatar
 
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
When playing Dungeons & Dragons we use random tables! But you know what, would I think it was cool if Scotty's assistant in engineering was transgender and nobody batted an eyelid? Hell yes.
Considering how little we know about Keenser...

Or, for that matter, the Ensign who took Chekov's post on the bridge.
In the comics Keenser is male. Darwin is female all right.

I agree that the background characters on the bridge are not too bad. We're generally just missing women in speaking roles and senior positions. They missed numerous opportunities - Marcus, Spock's new commanding officer, Cupcake's assistant, a female deputy chief engineer, leaving out Chapel and Rand again, or flipping the role of the parents so the mother is more active.
__________________
Star Trek/Babylon 5/Alien crossover www.youtube.com/user/pauln6

Other Worlds Role Playing Game
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/produc...ducts_id=97631
Pauln6 is offline  
Old June 13 2013, 10:35 PM   #132
Pauln6
Rear Admiral
 
Pauln6's Avatar
 
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

BillJ wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post


It's not about the quota, folks, it's about the content.
Oh my God! Somebody actually gets it.
It's about both, silly.
__________________
Star Trek/Babylon 5/Alien crossover www.youtube.com/user/pauln6

Other Worlds Role Playing Game
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/produc...ducts_id=97631
Pauln6 is offline  
Old June 13 2013, 10:37 PM   #133
Ryan8bit
Commodore
 
Ryan8bit's Avatar
 
Location: St. Paul, MN
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
And then the mirror universe episode where they suddenly run around with bear bellies to sex it up.
At first I read that as "beer bellies" and was really confused. Now I'm just partly amused by the misspelling.
Ryan8bit is offline  
Old June 13 2013, 10:38 PM   #134
JarodRussell
Vice Admiral
 
JarodRussell's Avatar
 
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
And then the mirror universe episode where they suddenly run around with bear bellies to sex it up.
At first I read that as "beer bellies" and was really confused. Now I'm just partly amused by the misspelling.
Haha, oh my!

Bear bellies, pretty furry.
JarodRussell is offline  
Old June 13 2013, 10:43 PM   #135
CrazyHorse89
Lieutenant
 
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

BillJ wrote: View Post
CrazyHorse89 wrote: View Post

If one took up your suggestion as a benchmark, nobody would discuss anything about anything.
You obviously haven't noticed the dozens of other threads about this movie. There becomes a time when someone runs a subject completely into the ground to the point that people begin to push back, not because they hate women or think they should be subservient but because the discussion serves no real purpose without people being willing to back up what they say.

If I thought Star Trek Into Darkness showed women in a poor way, I wouldn't buy tickets to it. I wouldn't buy tickets for my wife (who is a pretty staunch feminist, laughs at this discussion and the Alice Eve underwear controversy), my mother-in-law and tell my daughter she should go see it.

There are totally times one should be willing to take a stand and refuse to support something because it offends them. This simply isn't one of those times.
But none of us are saying that people who don't give a flying-giraffe about the gender balance in Star Trek or Alice Eve's underwear shouldn't be able to express their annoyance, bemusement, or opposition to those who do.

I think that this is an important issue, and for many women it's symptomatic of a wider one which they don't have the luxury of being able to ignore. In my opinion, the 'gendered construction' of Star Trek hasn't been done to death: at least not any more than the Box Office results, Khan, or the effects of salt water on a fictional starship.
CrazyHorse89 is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:28 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.