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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

View Poll Results: Which is the most powerful military?
Starfleet 17 22.37%
Klingons 2 2.63%
Romulans 1 1.32%
Dominion 56 73.68%
Voters: 76. You may not vote on this poll

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Old June 13 2013, 08:55 PM   #76
Cyke101
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

Timo wrote: View Post
...The Dominion War battles looked like uncoordinated melees based on "every ship for herself" to the outside. Is that a typical way for Starfleet to fight?
I blame Sacrifice of the Angels for that popular perception of DS9 battles. Early in the battle, the Dominion blocked Starfleet communications, meaning no fleet coordination and massive disorganization that made many Starfleet vessels easy targets. But it's also testament to the strength of those vessels, considering that O'Brien only managed to take down that jamming field after several hours of combat, and Starfleet still had ships that got through the blockade (with some last minute assistance by the Klingons, of course). So to answer your rhetorical question: No, i don't think that's a typical Starfleet fight!

In the subsequent big fleet battles, Starfleet seemed to have much better coordination, ie squadron formations at Chintoka and Cardassia (though I recognize that they're far from perfect -- dramatic licence being what it is). A couple of my favorite shots include the Defiant, the Hood, a Miranda and a BOP on an assault run in "Tears of the Prophets," and a Galaxy-class remaining stationary but providing fire support, complete with the Defiant and various Federation fighters zooming around, in "What You Leave Behind."
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Old June 14 2013, 01:46 AM   #77
swaaye
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

It would be really neat if some of DS9's battles were reimagined with modern SFX if the series ever goes HD. They really struggled to make a reasonable TV space war with models and early CG. I'd like shields instead of the seemingly flammable kerosene filled hulls too.
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Old June 17 2013, 01:23 AM   #78
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

Sran wrote: View Post
JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
There are totally Klingon engineers.

They have no honor.

But everybody wants to hire them.

Just like humans.
What?

--Sran
Meaning the engineers do all the work but the financiers and the spokespeople take all the credit. So for Klingons, being an engineer is not considered 'honorable' but everybody needs them anyway.
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Old June 17 2013, 02:08 AM   #79
Saturn0660
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
The Klingons never seemed to master dentistry.
Much like the British.
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Old June 17 2013, 02:15 AM   #80
Sran
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

^Would it matter if they had? Look at what they eat.

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Old June 19 2013, 03:52 PM   #81
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

Saturn0660 wrote: View Post
AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
The Klingons never seemed to master dentistry.
Much like the British.
They turn up late to the fight in "Sacrifice of Angels" - much like the Americans
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Old June 25 2013, 01:24 AM   #82
LobsterAfternoon
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

Yah but most people don't know.
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Old July 3 2013, 12:35 AM   #83
Mirror Kira
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

I think the answer to this question depends on which time period you choose and how you define "most powerful." Assuming you are talking about the period encompassed by TNG/DS9/VOY, and assuming you refer to soldiers and materiel, I would say the Borg. However, in terms of organization and strategy, it's hard to deny the prowess of Starfleet. Every superpower in the Milky Way that has attacked the Federation has gone home with a bloody nose...or worse.
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Old July 4 2013, 03:49 AM   #84
JRoss
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

Dominion
Starfleet
Romulan
Klingons
Cardassians
Talarians

Problematic with placement are the Breen and Tholians, who seem to be isolationists, the Ferengi who have tech on par with Starfleet and bottomless resources but no real martial ambitions, the Sheliak who seem more powerful than Starfleet but limited in the planets that they can inhabit and the Tzenkethi, about whom we know nothing.

I put Romulans ahead of Klingons because if the Klingons could have conquered the Romulans then they would have done so by now.
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Old July 9 2013, 03:30 PM   #85
KGator
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

While I admittedly lost interest in DS-9 before the series ended, I would have to vote the Dominion as the strongest military power as they nearly conquered all the major powers of the Alpha Quadrant despite the tenuous lines of communication to their occupation force (the wormhole access).

Clearly Starfleet seems to be the largest economic power in the known galaxy and often a large economic power can overwhelm a superior military force through sheer numbers, technological advances and alliances. Which seems to be what happened here.
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Old July 9 2013, 04:01 PM   #86
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

KGator wrote: View Post

Clearly Starfleet seems to be the largest economic power in the known galaxy and often a large economic power can overwhelm a superior military force through sheer numbers, technological advances and alliances. Which seems to be what happened here.


No what happend was the dominion fleet got cut off and had to reley on a 3rd rate power to maintain it.


If the wormhole had been avalible then it would of crushed the Alpha/Beta quadrent races like insects.


The most powerfull in the milkyway is the Borg. I dont think you can deny that. But the Domnion is deffinatly above the Federation.

Quite frankly though there are vast unexplored areas of the mikyway the dominion were only stmbled on by chance. There may be some other powerfull empires out there.

I also think the Krenim from voyager would have been able to go toe to toe with the Federation.

Last edited by Crazyewok; July 9 2013 at 04:42 PM.
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Old July 10 2013, 05:53 PM   #87
KGator
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

Crazyewok wrote: View Post
KGator wrote: View Post

Clearly Starfleet seems to be the largest economic power in the known galaxy and often a large economic power can overwhelm a superior military force through sheer numbers, technological advances and alliances. Which seems to be what happened here.


No what happend was the dominion fleet got cut off and had to reley on a 3rd rate power to maintain it.


If the wormhole had been avalible then it would of crushed the Alpha/Beta quadrent races like insects.


The most powerfull in the milkyway is the Borg. I dont think you can deny that. But the Domnion is deffinatly above the Federation.

Quite frankly though there are vast unexplored areas of the mikyway the dominion were only stmbled on by chance. There may be some other powerfull empires out there.

I also think the Krenim from voyager would have been able to go toe to toe with the Federation.
I suppose the whims or the writers supercede what would seem to be logical. However, unless I am mistaken in thinking the Federation to be the superior economic power, the advantage the Dominion had was in their war footing (production of military assets) and the ready availability of Jem Hadar soldiers (who were both numerous and disposable).

The logical counter to this (as expressed in another thread) would be for the Federation to not only gear up for war production (total war) while using AIs and unmanned assets to do the majority of the fighting. This would also increase productivity as ships could be much smaller and efficient (no need for crew areas). The downside is these ships would be useless for other uses outside of the war. But if the existence of the Federation was truly threatened then survival and victory would be more important than balancing long term value for current resources.

But hey, the Federation always seems to develop some super new technology or find a new super-race to ally with that we might have to take into account. Maybe its more than luck, maybe its cosmic karma that rewards the good empires. ;-)

To do a true analysis we would need to know more about the Dominion's and Federation's overall resources. One race could be constantly on a war footing and thus have a huge advantage at the beginning of a conflict while another have greater overall resources that, once tapped into, would become overwhelming in the long term (similar to the US in WW2).
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Old July 10 2013, 07:58 PM   #88
Timo
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

But the thing is, the Dominion is not on a war footing as the war begins - as per "To the Death", it hasn't fought a credible enemy for two thousand years!

Yet it is obviously the one with the greater overall resources, when even a cut-off beachhead force can (with its own resources and those of a second- or third-rate local power) outproduce the entire Alpha Quadrant so that the mighty Klingon Empire faces 20:1 odds in ship numbers towards the end of the conflict. This despite the Alpha Axis performing several successful strikes against Dominion ship and troop production facilities over the course of the war, including at the very start when the overall balance should be grossly in favor of Alpha forces.

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Old July 10 2013, 09:03 PM   #89
KGator
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

Timo wrote: View Post
But the thing is, the Dominion is not on a war footing as the war begins - as per "To the Death", it hasn't fought a credible enemy for two thousand years!

Yet it is obviously the one with the greater overall resources, when even a cut-off beachhead force can (with its own resources and those of a second- or third-rate local power) outproduce the entire Alpha Quadrant so that the mighty Klingon Empire faces 20:1 odds in ship numbers towards the end of the conflict. This despite the Alpha Axis performing several successful strikes against Dominion ship and troop production facilities over the course of the war, including at the very start when the overall balance should be grossly in favor of Alpha forces.

Timo Saloniemi
War footing doesn't mean that you are currently or recently engaged in battle but rather that you have a large standing military or dedicate a large portion of your GNP (or interstellar equivalent) to the military in the event of future conflict. As the Dominion government was predicated on absolute rule of the founders and used armed agression as an expansion strategy with genetically bred soldiers and diplomats having unquestioned loyalty . . . I'd say they had a distinct military advantage and war footing at the beginning of the conflict.

Combine that with the fact that they knew of the Federation first and were making plans to deal with them in the future (though the wormhole meant that plan had to be sped into implementation considerably) and the advantage of preparing for War goes to the Dominion. Not only would a directly controlled economy be easier to switch to war production but the existence of substantial Jem Haddar forces to deal with any unrest is already available for military solutions.

Now you add their secretive nature and the changeling asset to create chaos and destabilize races that they target and you have a potentially enormous advantage in terms of military aggression in the early stages of any conflict.

The Federation on the otherhand is a democracy comprised of a large diversity of races, cultures, languages, technologies, etc, which (while expansive) would take time to focus and organize for war production.

But if we were being serious, if the Dominion had existed for thousands of years before the Federation (aka space flight and other advanced technology) then how did they not have such a technological advantage to crush the Alpha Quadrant races like roaches? The superiority of knowledge and technology would be like a US Navy Seal Team with Apache air support implementing a nighttime assault on a community of early Pleistocene era neanderthals . . . game over.

So I guess after the Dominion reached a certain point of advancement they just decided to hold firm and looked upon any future advances with disdain??? Was this ever explained in the show?
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Old July 10 2013, 09:19 PM   #90
Timo
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

War footing doesn't mean that you are currently or recently engaged in battle but rather that you have a large standing military or dedicate a large portion of your GNP (or interstellar equivalent) to the military in the event of future conflict.
But when it's established the Dominion does not wage wars, it follows it's very unlikely to have a large standing army.

Indeed, the very fact that its soldiers are invisible only when not fighting is splendid support for them existing for reasons other than fighting of wars. If your troopers are invisible, nobody can tell they are not there or that there are less of them than the rumors say.

Note that despite all the bluster, the Dominion never manages to send troops to blockade the Gamma side of the wormhole. Instead, they bide their time, then send troops to blockade the Alpha side in a complex plan requiring local allies. If they can't hold an initial advantage even on their own turf, they are unlikely to be in any sort of "readiness".

But if we were being serious, if the Dominion had existed for thousands of years before the Federation (aka space flight and other advanced technology) then how did they not have such a technological advantage to crush the Alpha Quadrant races like roaches?
The dialogue references are to about ten thousand years of existence and two thousand years without credible opponents. That would be an obvious recipe for stagnation - especially as the Founders have every motivation not to teach their subject races how to become superior soldiers or build superior weapons! A police state doesn't arm its police with tanks, lest their barrels be turned against the presidential palace; batons, tear grenades, water cannon and submachine guns are plenty enough to deal with the average mass of disgruntled citizens.

So I guess after the Dominion reached a certain point of advancement they just decided to hold firm
The thing about the Dominion is that it does not decide. It is not the government, it is the subject and the victim. The Founders lead, and it is in their interests to keep the Dominion weak.

It's a devious setup, with a dramatically satisfying Achilles heel. And it's not without historical precedent, as the Nazis made damn sure their military forces were in a subjugated position, deliberately starved of resources and at the mercy of an obscure and inefficient chain of command. It worked very well for a while, and then backfired big time against an actually formidable enemy with enough resources to take losses and make mistakes and still triumph...

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