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Old June 13 2013, 02:10 AM   #106
Nerys Myk
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

RJDiogenes wrote:
Heh. No, resorting to political dodges won't change anything.
So, no interest in explaining or defending your characterization of Uhura as a bar babe who uses sex to get what she wants?

Interesting, because he was deliberately portrayed as a delinquent loser by the writers-- that was their purpose in killing off his father
Did they? Kirk was shown to be aimless and without direction. The loner rebel with a chip on his shoulder. Some one who got in a few scrapes with the law. An archetype seen in many films.

In the original universe, he was a "positively grim" student.
A characterization that barely lasted half a season.

Yup, he was stuck in solitary confinement in some useless job.
Which means he pissed of the wrong person, not that he's a "loser". Oh and he had company.

Yes, he tried to kill Kirk twice. Premeditated the first time, since he had the option of the brig or confinement to quarters or sick bay, rather than shoot him off alone to crash on a hostile planet
Hostile if you fail to follow procedure. His solution isn't all that different than Kirk's solution to the Mitchell or Khan problems.

Spock losing control and trying to kill Kirk is a classic Trek moment. Having Spock do so in ST09 is an homage to episodes like This Side of Paradise and Amok Time. Was Spock "psycho" in those episodes?

People often need a light moment after a traumatic experience. That situation is not even slightly analogous.
Why not? Planets destroyed. Relatives killed. Crisis averted. ST09 actually spent sometime showing Spock, Sarek and Uhura responding to the loss of Vulcan and Amanda. Operation: Annihilate!, not so much. Was Kirk's family ever mentioned again? Worst Uncle Ever.

And, since you're getting so bent out of shape about the whole thing, I really have no interest in going over it all again and again.
Bent out of shape? Is that how you characterize me calmly countering your argument with examples that support my opinion?
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Old June 13 2013, 02:20 AM   #107
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Spock losing control and trying to kill Kirk is a classic Trek moment. Having Spock do so in ST09 is an homage to episodes like This Side of Paradise and Amok Time. Was Spock "psycho" in those episodes?
Yes, he was. In JJ Trek he was just out of character, especially with "Khaaaaan!!!!".

You'll also notice that, Pon Farr or no, Spock gathers himself rather valiantly after having thought he killed his friend, which is more than you can say for JJ Spock's ability to keep it under control despite hurting inside.
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Old June 13 2013, 02:52 AM   #108
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

mos6507 wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Spock losing control and trying to kill Kirk is a classic Trek moment. Having Spock do so in ST09 is an homage to episodes like This Side of Paradise and Amok Time. Was Spock "psycho" in those episodes?
Yes, he was. In JJ Trek he was just out of character, especially with "Khaaaaan!!!!".

You'll also notice that, Pon Farr or no, Spock gathers himself rather valiantly after having thought he killed his friend, which is more than you can say for JJ Spock's ability to keep it under control despite hurting inside.
So, Spock does things he's done in previous episodes and its out of character?

Spock's younger here than any other adult version outside of the Cage, where he infamously yells "The women!". Spock in either Universe isn't quite the person we see in TOS. That gives the character some leeway in both the Cage and the films.
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Old June 13 2013, 03:02 AM   #109
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

The thing about Spock screaming "Khaaaaaaaaaaaan!" is not that it's out of character. The problem is that it's just a pointless variation on another movie, The Wrath of Khan, instead of being an incident integral to its own movie. I've seen The Wrath of Khan and quasi-reruns of its high points were boring.

If nostalgia was so important you liked The Wrath of Khan inserts, why isn't there any nostalgia for the old versions of the characters? I tried to take the new versions as the movie presented them, but the film itself kept bringing up the past. It's the equivalent of repeatedly reminding a new girl friend about her old boy friend.
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Old June 13 2013, 03:15 AM   #110
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

stj wrote: View Post
The thing about Spock screaming "Khaaaaaaaaaaaan!" is not that it's out of character. The problem is that it's just a pointless variation on another movie, The Wrath of Khan, instead of being an incident integral to its own movie. I've seen The Wrath of Khan and quasi-reruns of its high points were boring.

If nostalgia was so important you liked The Wrath of Khan inserts, why isn't there any nostalgia for the old versions of the characters? I tried to take the new versions as the movie presented them, but the film itself kept bringing up the past. It's the equivalent of repeatedly reminding a new girl friend about her old boy friend.
I love the old versions. I find the new ones to be familiar yet fresh. As for nods to the old show. I like that too.
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Old June 13 2013, 05:06 AM   #111
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

What's the point of doing Star Trek if you aren't going to use the elements available? Might as well do Generic Action Space Flick #8472.
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Old June 13 2013, 09:35 AM   #112
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

Konata Izumi wrote: View Post
Obviously the hypothesis here is that he fixed the program to include some real-life solution he had in mind. Instead of blowing up ships with the power of an apple.

Whether that is what actually happened is a different matter.
Exactly. I've always assumed that original Kirk did something clever and commendable, not just stuck in a cheat code.
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Old June 13 2013, 01:32 PM   #113
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
I love the old versions. I find the new ones to be familiar yet fresh. As for nods to the old show. I like that too.
How fortunate for your viewing experience. The grating thing is that the new movie fans refuse to accept that there are any reasons at all to find the new movies boring and trite.

BillJ wrote: View Post
What's the point of doing Star Trek if you aren't going to use the elements available? Might as well do Generic Action Space Flick #8472.
If you don't surreptitiously redefine "elements available" to exclude the original characterizations and ethos...you've just repeated the charge against the movie held by the most vociferous opposition to the reboots.

PS It really seems very likely, after only a moment's reflection, that the Kobayashi Maru program included random, nonrepeating elements, so that no scenario would ever be the same. A good simulation should incorporate the randomness of real life if it can, and this is Star Trek computing technology we're talking about.
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Old June 13 2013, 01:52 PM   #114
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

Calling Nyota Uhura a "bar babe" isn't sexist and racist. Check.

Complaining about stuff that's in the Bad Robot films, that's also in the Prime timeline films, isn't lying. Check.

Saying that these are legitimate critiques and if anyone disagrees is just a wanker. Check.
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Old June 13 2013, 02:39 PM   #115
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
Konata Izumi wrote: View Post
Obviously the hypothesis here is that he fixed the program to include some real-life solution he had in mind. Instead of blowing up ships with the power of an apple.

Whether that is what actually happened is a different matter.
Exactly. I've always assumed that original Kirk did something clever and commendable, not just stuck in a cheat code.
Yet McCoy calls it "cheating".
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Old June 13 2013, 02:45 PM   #116
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

RJD, could you elaborate on what program change PrimeKirk could've made that you would find commendable in contrast to what NuKirk did in his change to the program? The test wasn't to challenge you to win, the test was to examine how you would react to losing. Once you go into the program and change it to allow you to win (No matter how you change it, IMHO) there is no difference whatsoever, it's still cheating and it's "pissing" on the purpose of the test. What would have been a acceptable way for nuKirk to have cheated that would have made him just as commendable as PrimeKirk?
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Old June 13 2013, 03:17 PM   #117
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

I'd like to reemphasize that we don't even know what Prime Kirk did.

For all we know, nuKirk was "just as commendable as PrimeKirk" but it was Starfleet's attitude that was different. Starfleet was under greater pressure in the nu-timeline, due to the Narada incursion. Perhaps the brass was grimmer and took a dimmer view to cheating.

And, I really think that the Enterprise was gimped in the Prime Universe simulation. The test seemed overtly unfair. Doing something unfair to counter inherent unfairness seems like fair play to me.

Also, a commendation for original thinking sounds like a begrudgingly made compliment, if not a backhanded one. Perhaps command wasn't so much praising what he did (altering the test) as why he did it (never give up, never surrender).

Another point that just occurred to me. Using the prefix code to order Reliant to lower her shields sounds exactly like what nuKirk did in the simulation: nuKirk eliminated the Klingon shields. If Klingon ships use a system similar to the Federation ships, then the prefix codes of Klingon ships would be all that would be needed to eliminate Klingon shields, out of simulation. Is spying really cheating, in war?

If what Prime Kirk did to save the Enterprise from the Reliant in their first engagement was good, then why would it be utterly bad for nuKirk to use the same principle in the simulation?
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Old June 13 2013, 03:52 PM   #118
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
I'd like to reemphasize that we don't even know what Prime Kirk did.

For all we know, nuKirk was "just as commendable as PrimeKirk" but it was Starfleet's attitude that was different. Starfleet was under greater pressure in the nu-timeline, due to the Narada incursion. Perhaps the brass was grimmer and took a dimmer view to cheating.

And, I really think that the Enterprise was gimped in the Prime Universe simulation. The test seemed overtly unfair. Doing something unfair to counter inherent unfairness seems like fair play to me.

Also, a commendation for original thinking sounds like a begrudgingly made compliment, if not a backhanded one. Perhaps command wasn't so much praising what he did (altering the test) as why he did it (never give up, never surrender).

Another point that just occurred to me. Using the prefix code to order Reliant to lower her shields sounds exactly like what nuKirk did in the simulation: nuKirk eliminated the Klingon shields. If Klingon ships use a system similar to the Federation ships, then the prefix codes of Klingon ships would be all that would be needed to eliminate Klingon shields, out of simulation. Is spying really cheating, in war?

If what Prime Kirk did to save the Enterprise from the Reliant in their first engagement was good, then why would it be utterly bad for nuKirk to use the same principle in the simulation?
But again, it wasn't an unfair test, the test wasn't about winning, it was about testing your metal in a hopeless situation. Yea, it's a mean thing to do, but, they consider it necessary to see how you react under those circumstances, in order to help weed out your Commodore Deckers. It's only unfair if you consider the reason for the test is to test your ability to win against it. I'm sure today's military pulls the same kind of thing (Letting you believe a test or training scenario is one thing, but, it's really something else. In fact, I would be surprised if they don't engage in their own Kobiyashi Maru tests at some level of Rank advancement), and I wouldn't be surprised if there are many College classes that also give you tests or puzzles you think are one thing, but, they're really something else.
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Old June 13 2013, 04:09 PM   #119
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

Sindatur wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
I'd like to reemphasize that we don't even know what Prime Kirk did.

For all we know, nuKirk was "just as commendable as PrimeKirk" but it was Starfleet's attitude that was different. Starfleet was under greater pressure in the nu-timeline, due to the Narada incursion. Perhaps the brass was grimmer and took a dimmer view to cheating.

And, I really think that the Enterprise was gimped in the Prime Universe simulation. The test seemed overtly unfair. Doing something unfair to counter inherent unfairness seems like fair play to me.

Also, a commendation for original thinking sounds like a begrudgingly made compliment, if not a backhanded one. Perhaps command wasn't so much praising what he did (altering the test) as why he did it (never give up, never surrender).

Another point that just occurred to me. Using the prefix code to order Reliant to lower her shields sounds exactly like what nuKirk did in the simulation: nuKirk eliminated the Klingon shields. If Klingon ships use a system similar to the Federation ships, then the prefix codes of Klingon ships would be all that would be needed to eliminate Klingon shields, out of simulation. Is spying really cheating, in war?

If what Prime Kirk did to save the Enterprise from the Reliant in their first engagement was good, then why would it be utterly bad for nuKirk to use the same principle in the simulation?
But again, it wasn't an unfair test, the test wasn't about winning, it was about testing your metal in a hopeless situation. Yea, it's a mean thing to do, but, they consider it necessary to see how you react under those circumstances, in order to help weed out your Commodore Deckers. It's only unfair if you consider the reason for the test is to test your ability to win against it. I'm sure today's military pulls the same kind of thing (Letting you believe a test or training scenario is one thing, but, it's really something else. In fact, I would be surprised if they don't engage in their own Kobiyashi Maru tests at some level of Rank advancement), and I wouldn't be surprised if there are many College classes that also give you tests or puzzles you think are one thing, but, they're really something else.
Kirk's metal was tested. He didn't like having loss forced down his throat, so he changed the test. That was how his character reacted. Kirk's point was that it is a poor character trait to just roll over and die. He wasn't going to stand for a test that could not be beaten.

If you really think the test wasn't unfair, then you must think that neither nuKirk nor Prime Kirk deserved to be commended for altering the test, because in that case, by altering the fair test, Kirk failed to get the point of it.
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Old June 13 2013, 04:23 PM   #120
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
I'd like to reemphasize that we don't even know what Prime Kirk did.

For all we know, nuKirk was "just as commendable as PrimeKirk" but it was Starfleet's attitude that was different. Starfleet was under greater pressure in the nu-timeline, due to the Narada incursion. Perhaps the brass was grimmer and took a dimmer view to cheating.

And, I really think that the Enterprise was gimped in the Prime Universe simulation. The test seemed overtly unfair. Doing something unfair to counter inherent unfairness seems like fair play to me.

Also, a commendation for original thinking sounds like a begrudgingly made compliment, if not a backhanded one. Perhaps command wasn't so much praising what he did (altering the test) as why he did it (never give up, never surrender).

Another point that just occurred to me. Using the prefix code to order Reliant to lower her shields sounds exactly like what nuKirk did in the simulation: nuKirk eliminated the Klingon shields. If Klingon ships use a system similar to the Federation ships, then the prefix codes of Klingon ships would be all that would be needed to eliminate Klingon shields, out of simulation. Is spying really cheating, in war?

If what Prime Kirk did to save the Enterprise from the Reliant in their first engagement was good, then why would it be utterly bad for nuKirk to use the same principle in the simulation?
But again, it wasn't an unfair test, the test wasn't about winning, it was about testing your metal in a hopeless situation. Yea, it's a mean thing to do, but, they consider it necessary to see how you react under those circumstances, in order to help weed out your Commodore Deckers. It's only unfair if you consider the reason for the test is to test your ability to win against it. I'm sure today's military pulls the same kind of thing (Letting you believe a test or training scenario is one thing, but, it's really something else. In fact, I would be surprised if they don't engage in their own Kobiyashi Maru tests at some level of Rank advancement), and I wouldn't be surprised if there are many College classes that also give you tests or puzzles you think are one thing, but, they're really something else.
Kirk's metal was tested. He didn't like having loss forced down his throat, so he changed the test. That was how his character reacted. Kirk's point was that it is a poor character trait to just roll over and die. He wasn't going to stand for a test that could not be beaten.

If you really think the test wasn't unfair, then you must think that neither nuKirk nor Prime Kirk deserved to be commended for altering the test, because in that case, by altering the fair test, Kirk failed to get the point of it.
Yes, the test wasn't unfair. And yes, they did indeed find out exactly what they wanted to know by Kirk's reaction of changing the programming instead of giving in, it showed his resourcefulness, and his "Never Say Die" attitude. In fact, I believe they found out much better what they wanted to know, then if Kirk hadn't "cheated" and kept on trying to beat it over and over again as originally written
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