RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,571
Posts: 5,423,361
Members: 24,810
Currently online: 443
Newest member: toaster

TrekToday headlines

Star Trek: Alien Domain Game Announced
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Red Shirt Diaries Episode Three
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Made Out Of Mudd Photonovel
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Takei Has Growth Removed
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Retro Review: Tears of the Prophets
By: Michelle on Sep 12

New Wizkids Attack Wing Ships
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Coto Drama Sold To Fox
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Braga Inks Deal
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Remastered Original Series Re-release
By: T'Bonz on Sep 11

UK Trek Ships Calendar Debuts
By: T'Bonz on Sep 10


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Tech

Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 12 2013, 04:12 PM   #16
Dukhat
Commodore
 
Dukhat's Avatar
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
Re: Was the U.S.S. Horatio an Ambassador Variant?

Unfortunately in canon, there is no straight answer, but I'd guess that the vast majority of people would conclude that the Enterprise-C variant came first, mainly because of the bussard collector caps. However, I've noticed that the Yamaguchi's sensor dome underneath the saucer is more reminiscent of the Excelsior's dome rather than the more simplistic Ent-C dome, so YMMV. Plus, the only Ambassador bridge interior we saw was the Ent-C's, and it was reminiscent of the TMP-era ships.

One of the things that irked me about the Ambassador class is that we know so little about it. We don't know when the prototype was constructed, we don't know how long the class was in production, we don't know why most of the known ships of the class had registry numbers of 1XXXX and 2XXXX while the older Excelsior and Miranda classes had registries of 3XXXX and 4XXXX, and we don't know why we never saw the class again when we saw those huge fleet shots in DS9.
__________________
“Don’t believe everything you read on the internet.”
– Benjamin Franklin
Dukhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 12 2013, 09:13 PM   #17
Mark_Nguyen
Commodore
 
Mark_Nguyen's Avatar
 
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Re: Was the U.S.S. Horatio an Ambassador Variant?

I'm happy with the notion that the two variants may even have been produced simultaneously. Today, we have several variants of cars, airliners, and even naval warships being produced at the same time. Normally this is because of slightly different mission requirements: for nor example, a Boeing 737-600 series is shorter than an -800 and carries less passengers, but makes more economic sense for flights of a certain duration on routes that see so many paying people.

It's entirely possible that the variant carries out a slightly different mission than the original, or is equipped to do so. We similarly know that the Excelsior and her variants were produced concurrently, with some batches sporting the extra bulges while later vessels lack them. Who knows what these changes are - more cargo space for some, an extra shuttle bay?

Maybe it's like today's Airbus A380, which comes in two versions depending on which engine the airline chooses. This could also be an example of that - Ambassadors meant for deep space exploration missions would have slightly different engines optimized for long duration warp, plus an extra shuttle or cargo bay for the additional stuff they'd be taking with them. Fifty years after construction, those ships would still maintain those variations regardless of what mission they were actually assigned to...

Mark
__________________
Mark Nguyen - Producer
The 404s - Improv Comedy Group

Oh, I like that Trek thing too...
Mark_Nguyen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 12 2013, 09:22 PM   #18
Mark_Nguyen
Commodore
 
Mark_Nguyen's Avatar
 
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Re: Was the U.S.S. Horatio an Ambassador Variant?

And I never figured Ambassadors to be created in huge numbers to begin with. I like to think, based on the background, that these ships were the Galaxy-class of their time: the biggest and the best Starfleet could muster, for the big long exploration missions that made us proud. There wouldn't be more than a dozen like her in the fleet, like the Constitution or Galaxy (initially anyway) of their days.

As such, inasmuch as the Enterprise-D rarely ever ran into one of her sister ships, the Ambassadors would be rare enough that we would almost never see them - indeed, how often did the E-D rendevous with one on-screen? Horatio, Zhukov, Excalibur? So not seeing them amongst the dozens of other ships wouldn't be that big a deal, since they were not so common to begin with. Similarly, I like to think that some of the Ambassador class is still doing the mission they were built for, and are simply WAY out there and not able to be recalled in time to participate in the Dominion War.

Remember the two deep-space explorers that were originally supposed to rendezvous with Voyager in "six or seven years", putting them at least twenty years away from the Federation? Ambassadors. Yeah.

Mark
__________________
Mark Nguyen - Producer
The 404s - Improv Comedy Group

Oh, I like that Trek thing too...
Mark_Nguyen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 12 2013, 09:59 PM   #19
Dukhat
Commodore
 
Dukhat's Avatar
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
Re: Was the U.S.S. Horatio an Ambassador Variant?

Mark_Nguyen wrote: View Post
And I never figured Ambassadors to be created in huge numbers to begin with. I like to think, based on the background, that these ships were the Galaxy-class of their time: the biggest and the best Starfleet could muster, for the big long exploration missions that made us proud. There wouldn't be more than a dozen like her in the fleet, like the Constitution or Galaxy (initially anyway) of their days.
While I suppose that's an ok in-universe explanation, it doesn't really fit with what we saw on screen.

Ent-C: Operating near the Klingon border in 2344.
Zhukov: Rendezvousing with the Ent-D to transfer a Vulcan ambassador.
Excalibur: Assigned to the tachyon detection grid.
Yamaguchi: Participated in the Wolf 359 battle.

None of these missions I would classify as "deep-space," nor would I infer that the class was made for deep-space exploration based solely on this.

And while your point was that all the "other" Ambassadors with these four exceptions were all away on deep-space missions, simply because we never saw much of them, then how do we explain the absence of the numerous other classes we only saw a few times or not at all?

Andromeda
Antares
Apollo
Bradbury
Centaur type
Challenger
Cheyenne
Chimera
Constellation
Curry type
Deneva
Freedom
Hokule'a
Istanbul
Korolev
Mediterranean
Merced
New Orleans
Niagara
Norway
Olympic
Renaissance
Rigel
Sequoia
Springfield
Surak
Wambundu
Yeager
Yorkshire
Zodiac


Where were all they during the DS9 fleet battles against the Dominion? Deep space as well?
__________________
“Don’t believe everything you read on the internet.”
– Benjamin Franklin
Dukhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 12 2013, 11:18 PM   #20
throwback
Captain
 
Re: Was the U.S.S. Horatio an Ambassador Variant?

For myself, there was the variant USS Antares, with its registry of NCC-9844. I tend to think of this as the class ship of the Antares-class starship. Several of these ships were seen near Starbase 375.

The Centaur-type, Curry-type, Norway-class, and Yeager-type were identified in the battle to retake DS9 by the DS9: Tech Manual. An Okudagram identified the Olympic-class taking part in the Dominion War. Dialogue places the Rigel-class in that war.

According to causality reports, and using information from the Encyclopedia, the Apollo-class, the Constellation-class, the Hokule'a-class, the Istanbul-class, and the Surak-class were involved in that war.
throwback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13 2013, 01:40 AM   #21
Unicron
Continuity Spackle
 
Unicron's Avatar
 
Location: Cybertron
Send a message via ICQ to Unicron
Re: Was the U.S.S. Horatio an Ambassador Variant?

For some real fun, trying throwing the FASA-original Ambassador into the mix.
__________________

"My dream is to eat candy and poop emeralds. I'm halfway successful."


Catbert, Evil Director of Human Resources
Unicron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13 2013, 02:00 AM   #22
137th Gebirg
Rear Admiral
 
137th Gebirg's Avatar
 
Location: Who is John Galt?
Re: Was the U.S.S. Horatio an Ambassador Variant?

God, that's a fugly ship...
__________________
Gebirgswick - Ind, Tra, Sec & Env.
137th Gebirg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13 2013, 03:10 AM   #23
Unicron
Continuity Spackle
 
Unicron's Avatar
 
Location: Cybertron
Send a message via ICQ to Unicron
Re: Was the U.S.S. Horatio an Ambassador Variant?

It's certainly an oddball, but pretty consistent with FASAbashing. It's pretty heavily armed for a heavy cruiser too, with a ton of torpedo tubes on it.
__________________

"My dream is to eat candy and poop emeralds. I'm halfway successful."


Catbert, Evil Director of Human Resources
Unicron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13 2013, 03:20 AM   #24
CharlieZardoz
Lieutenant
 
Re: Was the U.S.S. Horatio an Ambassador Variant?

Haha! Well yes there were many types of Starfleet ships that participated in the dominion war including at least one Ambassador class (The Exeter). Hell, even the "Rutledge" was in the war at some point lol. The fact these many classes described weren't onscreen is simply due to the studio not having any working models CGI or otherwise at the time. It's really amazing we saw as many classes as we did and while the Ambassador class may have been less prevalent in theory I assume there were probably others. The Valdemar was on the edge of Cardassian space so I doubt it took a snooze while 10 fleets are starships were busy battling out possibly the greatest war Starfleet had faced at that point.

Regarding the two (or more) variants being built concurrently while I agree that is definitely true for Miranda's, Nebula's and Excelsior's it's really a question of why the studio decided to change the model in the first place. I can only assume the model makers sat down and said "hey let's make this thing look a bit more up to date to the TNG era and add some details." That would imply an "in universe" explanation for a refit to upgrade the old ships. Or at the very least the ones built later (20,000's) had the upgrades from the start since they were newer/built later on. While I agree with your idea Mark Nguyen that it is similar to having two car variants and I think that explanation sounds most logical, the creators of Star Trek did not always do things that made the most sense.
CharlieZardoz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13 2013, 03:28 AM   #25
The Mighty Monkey of Mim
Captain
 
Re: Was the U.S.S. Horatio an Ambassador Variant?

Timo wrote: View Post
I guess the wrench that could be thrown in is the use of the Enterprise-C footage to depict USS Excalibur in the episode "Redemption". Granted, it's a fuzzy little shot, but at least in theory we do see this starship, associated in dialogue with this specific name and thus in Okudagrams with a 26000-range registry, sport the telltale "first batch" ramscoops.
It's true they used stock footage of the Enterprise-C in one shot, but the footage of the Excalibur actually shot for the episode, namely the wide shot of the fleet, clearly shows her to be of the later variant type.
__________________
Watch out, or I'll get you with my Andorian ice powers.
The Mighty Monkey of Mim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13 2013, 03:31 AM   #26
CharlieZardoz
Lieutenant
 
Re: Was the U.S.S. Horatio an Ambassador Variant?

The Excalibur was definitely a variant. I mean they even changed the decals on the model for it.
CharlieZardoz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13 2013, 04:47 AM   #27
Dukhat
Commodore
 
Dukhat's Avatar
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
Re: Was the U.S.S. Horatio an Ambassador Variant?

throwback wrote: View Post
For myself, there was the variant USS Antares, with its registry of NCC-9844. I tend to think of this as the class ship of the Antares-class starship. Several of these ships were seen near Starbase 375.

The Centaur-type, Curry-type, Norway-class, and Yeager-type were identified in the battle to retake DS9 by the DS9: Tech Manual. An Okudagram identified the Olympic-class taking part in the Dominion War. Dialogue places the Rigel-class in that war.

According to causality reports, and using information from the Encyclopedia, the Apollo-class, the Constellation-class, the Hokule'a-class, the Istanbul-class, and the Surak-class were involved in that war.
While this is all true, I was referring to the actual CGI fleet shots, and why only seven ship classes were represented (plus one Nebula in one shot), with the majority of the number of ships being outdated Miranda and Excelsior classes. I know I sound like a broken record because I've posted this so many times, but I hope that when DS9 gets remastered, the original CGI VFX gets replaced with new scenes with new ships.

Also, I think listing the Norway in the DS9 Tech Manual was a mistake; I think they meant to put the Steamrunner there and got their artwork mixed up.

Unicron wrote: View Post
For some real fun, trying throwing the FASA-original Ambassador into the mix.
I have that FASA manual. It was written before the link between the Ambassador class and the Enterprise-C was known, so this wasn't supposed to represent the Ent-C. Which is good, because it's just a bad kitbash of Constitution parts.
__________________
“Don’t believe everything you read on the internet.”
– Benjamin Franklin
Dukhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13 2013, 04:50 AM   #28
Unicron
Continuity Spackle
 
Unicron's Avatar
 
Location: Cybertron
Send a message via ICQ to Unicron
Re: Was the U.S.S. Horatio an Ambassador Variant?

Correct. The FASA Ambassador design was included because it was referenced in the dialogue of "Conspiracy," along with the Paine class frigate from the same book. It wasn't until "Yesterday's Enterprise" that we'd know what the Ambassador looked like and that the C was part of the class. That being said, I have an interesting idea on how the FASA description of the C and their Ambassador variant could be integrated with some of the canon materials. Hooray fanwank!
__________________

"My dream is to eat candy and poop emeralds. I'm halfway successful."


Catbert, Evil Director of Human Resources
Unicron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13 2013, 06:04 AM   #29
CharlieZardoz
Lieutenant
 
Re: Was the U.S.S. Horatio an Ambassador Variant?

How do I delete messages? <---noob (:

Last edited by CharlieZardoz; June 13 2013 at 06:27 AM.
CharlieZardoz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13 2013, 06:06 AM   #30
CharlieZardoz
Lieutenant
 
Re: Was the U.S.S. Horatio an Ambassador Variant?

Dukhat wrote: View Post

While this is all true, I was referring to the actual CGI fleet shots, and why only seven ship classes were represented (plus one Nebula in one shot), with the majority of the number of ships being outdated Miranda and Excelsior classes. I know I sound like a broken record because I've posted this so many times, but I hope that when DS9 gets remastered, the original CGI VFX gets replaced with new scenes with new ships.
I don't understand what you mean by this? It was likely a question of money, CGI starships aren't free and I think Okuda and co just thought it would be cool to say yeah there are even other designs that are never onscreen, Like Hokule, Rigel, Apollo, etc. There really is no other reason why in my opinion anyway. No other models were made or available at that time with the Ambassador model (supposedly) being bashed up from some earthquake and the connie refit too big and bulky. I do believe however that the fleet scenes had a perfect mix of newer and older starships and it never bothered me that Miranda's and Excelsior's were there in large numbers since it gave the fleet dynamics, plus I love those designs

Last edited by CharlieZardoz; June 13 2013 at 07:19 AM.
CharlieZardoz is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
ambassador class, uss horatio

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:31 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.