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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old June 9 2013, 04:56 PM   #31
Mysterion
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Re: The Revised Starfleet Technical Manual/ Starship Enterprise (NCC-1

Forbin wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
An explaination as to why the Enterprise compliment increased from 203 to 430, what changed to require this.
Quick Trekkie rationalization off the top of my head: Pike's mission was peacekeeping and patrol. Kirk's mission was that PLUS exploration, requiring additional science teams.

Works for me.
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Old June 10 2013, 01:11 PM   #32
CaptainDave1701
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Re: The Revised Starfleet Technical Manual/ Starship Enterprise (NCC-1

Mysterion wrote: View Post
Forbin wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
An explaination as to why the Enterprise compliment increased from 203 to 430, what changed to require this.
Quick Trekkie rationalization off the top of my head: Pike's mission was peacekeeping and patrol. Kirk's mission was that PLUS exploration, requiring additional science teams.

Works for me.
If I had time to pull my books out I could perhaps help explain this. In the early development of the series the ship was meant to be very small. Just a couple of hundred feet not 1000 or so. The original crew compliment was rather small. Perhaps the crew size grew with the ship.
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Old June 10 2013, 04:55 PM   #33
feek61
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Re: The Revised Starfleet Technical Manual/ Starship Enterprise (NCC-1

The size of the ship was doubled from the first pilot episode to the production episodes. They modified the miniatures buy adding a second row of windows around the saucer edge; thus making it appear as two decks instead of one (since the pilot version only had one row of windows around the perimeter of the saucer). Also shortening up the bridge was done to be more in scale with a ship twice the original proposed size.
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Old June 12 2013, 08:12 AM   #34
Mario de Monti
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Re: The Revised Starfleet Technical Manual/ Starship Enterprise (NCC-1

feek61 wrote: View Post
The size of the ship was doubled from the first pilot episode to the production episodes. They modified the miniatures buy adding a second row of windows around the saucer edge; thus making it appear as two decks instead of one (since the pilot version only had one row of windows around the perimeter of the saucer). Also shortening up the bridge was done to be more in scale with a ship twice the original proposed size.
Im not sure about that. While its true, that the first model had only one row of windows in the rim of the saucer, that row was at the same relative height as in the 11-foot production model. Likewise the relative size of the windows stayed basically the same, as did the placement and spacing of window rows in the secondary hull.

Thus it seems unlikely IMHO, that the "Kirk-Enterprise" was intended to be twice the size of the "Pike-Enterprise".

Mario
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Old June 12 2013, 12:48 PM   #35
Robert Comsol
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Re: The Revised Starfleet Technical Manual/ Starship Enterprise (NCC-1

Allow me some clarification regarding crew size which, unfortunately, is a can of worms.

The Making of Star Trek is specific that the Enterprise was, indeed, to be considered to be a much smaller ship with a crew complement of 203 lives.

Once they had settled on the actual size of the ship (around 1,000') they forgot to upgrade the screenplay to reflect the increase in size, thus the Pike Enterprise got stuck with only 203 crew members.

In TMoST Gene Roddenberry explained the increase of number by having "expendable" mission and planetary specialists aboard that would be left behind on a new planet for survey and examination. Instead of having the ship return each time to a port to replenish crew personnel, they could theoretically deploy 227 people on planets and elsewhere to keep the crew strength essential to control the ship at 203.

Unfortunately (I can imagine Bobby Justman throwing fits about this inaccuracy ), they changed that concept by the time of "The Ultimate Computer" where suddenly 430 people were required to operate the ship.

Unfortunately this onscreen and canonical information abolished Roddenberry's (good) intention and leaves us stuck to come up with an "in-universe" rationalization why the personnel strength had to increase in a time period of 13 years from 203 to 430...

This doesn't really suggest a technical evolution if you require more and more people to run a starship unless the ship starts to fall apart and requires constant maintenance and repair (unfortunately that's not really a sound theory, either, because we had much more crew personnel roaming the ship's corridors in the first season in contrast to the third, where the ship often appeared to be deserted!).

Apparently they decided to cut down production costs for extra actors but forgot to adapt their "in-universe" crew strength.

Looks like Starfleet had a good idea when they authorized the M-5 computer research. Maybe the M-5 could have been kept under control, had they only intended to reduce personnel back to 203 and not just 20.

Bob
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Last edited by Robert Comsol; June 12 2013 at 01:00 PM.
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Old June 12 2013, 03:53 PM   #36
Irishman
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Re: The Revised Starfleet Technical Manual/ Starship Enterprise (NCC-1

The master list updated to add:

87. Spock's Quarters (3F 125)
88. Spock's family's ceremonial structure on Vulcan
89. T'Pau's dias and dress
90. T'Pring's dress
91. Stonn's clothes
92. Vulcan guard uniforms
93. Vulcan bellringer uniforms
94. Vulcan battleaxes ("Lirpa"?)
95. Vulcan cat'o'nine tails ("Arvun"?)
96. Portable Analysis Device (given to Kirk on the bridge in ep)
97. Uhura's comm board repair tool
98. Original 2002 Nomad probe configuration
99. Nomad probe after collision incident with alien Tan-Ru probe
100. Auxiliary Control
101. Brig cell
102. USS Constellation Star Ship (NCC-1017)
103. Planet Killer
104. Emergency Manual Monitor
105. Zefram Cochrane's clothes
106. Zefram Cochrane's house
107. Sarek's dress uniform
108. Tellarite dress uniform
109. Andorian dress uniform
110. Saurian brandy bottle
111. Warp-10 scoutship (TOS-R)
112. Observation Deck mentioned
113. Captain's quarters on deck 5 (in dialogue)
114. Surgical sterile field/cardio stimulator generator
115. Portable Cardiostimulator
116. USS Carolina (SF ship in dialogue)

More to come...
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Old June 12 2013, 04:29 PM   #37
CorporalCaptain
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Re: The Revised Starfleet Technical Manual/ Starship Enterprise (NCC-1

Non-Starfleet stuff doesn't really belong in a Starfleet Technical Manual.

I'm talking about things like Vulcan wedding gowns and civilian clothes. T'Pring's bridal gown could easily been one of dozens that year in the V'rawang catalog, or whatever. I'd suggest doing pages of something like that instead of shoehorning it into a Starfleet manual.

Documenting the general elements of Vulcan culture we've seen, such as the ceremonial weapons, might better be done in a Vulcan Science Academy manual on Vulcan history and culture. Pages from that could be fun, for some.

Standardized ambassador clothing might come out of a Federation manual for diplomats, and so forth.
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Old June 13 2013, 12:43 AM   #38
Irishman
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Re: The Revised Starfleet Technical Manual/ Starship Enterprise (NCC-1

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Non-Starfleet stuff doesn't really belong in a Starfleet Technical Manual.

I'm talking about things like Vulcan wedding gowns and civilian clothes. T'Pring's bridal gown could easily been one of dozens that year in the V'rawang catalog, or whatever. I'd suggest doing pages of something like that instead of shoehorning it into a Starfleet manual.

Documenting the general elements of Vulcan culture we've seen, such as the ceremonial weapons, might better be done in a Vulcan Science Academy manual on Vulcan history and culture. Pages from that could be fun, for some.

Standardized ambassador clothing might come out of a Federation manual for diplomats, and so forth.
Approaching it as a combination Technical Manual/Mission Log, as I'm considering doing, would give me freedom to dig into the episodes in ways that wouldn't make sense within the strict framework of a TM alone.
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Old June 13 2013, 02:14 AM   #39
CorporalCaptain
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Re: The Revised Starfleet Technical Manual/ Starship Enterprise (NCC-1

Irishman wrote: View Post
Approaching it as a combination Technical Manual/Mission Log, as I'm considering doing, would give me freedom to dig into the episodes in ways that wouldn't make sense within the strict framework of a TM alone.
Ah, yes. That makes sense. (Perhaps digested tricorder records, in some cases, even.)
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Old June 13 2013, 08:59 PM   #40
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Re: The Revised Starfleet Technical Manual/ Starship Enterprise (NCC-1

Irishman wrote: View Post
The master list updated to add:
snip

95. Vulcan cat'o'nine tails ("Arvun"?)

snip
This is called the "Ahn Woon". And it's more of a leather-strap bolo with tassels on each end, about six feet long.
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Old June 13 2013, 09:32 PM   #41
BorgusFrat
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Re: The Revised Starfleet Technical Manual/ Starship Enterprise (NCC-1

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Unfortunately (I can imagine Bobby Justman throwing fits about this inaccuracy ), they changed that concept by the time of "The Ultimate Computer" where suddenly 430 people were required to operate the ship.

Unfortunately this onscreen and canonical information abolished Roddenberry's (good) intention and leaves us stuck to come up with an "in-universe" rationalization why the personnel strength had to increase in a time period of 13 years from 203 to 430.
Actually, all he said was "it takes 430 people to man a starship". And it was Daystrom talking. He may have designed the starship's computers,but he wasn't a commander. He was a scientist. The shortcomings of a scientist was one of the subtexts of the episode script: that "command" is a thing best left to human beings, and that a scientist really couldn't "get" or understand what was needed for command that easily. But his line is essentially a throwaway anyway -- what the hell does "man" a starship actually mean?

Answer: it could still easily fall under the umbrella of the original concept -- that many, maybe even most, of the people onboard are either redundant (shift changes) or scientific specialists who maybe couldn't "run" the ship in an emergency if their lives depended on it (except maybe for some sort of short-term "auto-pilot" setting).

As for Kirk, he only says that he "can't run a starship with twenty crew". Point is, we never find out how many it takes to really "run" that kind of starship. Never in the series, I think. Don't be too slavish to some random onscreen dialogue, spoken by a character who was losing his mind!

The original concept still works. The weakest part of the episode isn't this aspect anyway. The weakest part is that those other Class One starships were all pulled off patrol / exploration / active duty to participate in a war game. But even this could be rationalized by the fact that M-5 was such a monumental step forward in computer power and such a potential sea-change that it was a rare occurence that might justify the situation.

Plus, they had to keep blowing smoke up Doctor Daystrom's hiney cuz he was so important.
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Old June 17 2013, 01:53 AM   #42
Irishman
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Re: The Revised Starfleet Technical Manual/ Starship Enterprise (NCC-1

FormerLurker wrote: View Post
Irishman wrote: View Post
The master list updated to add:
snip

95. Vulcan cat'o'nine tails ("Arvun"?)

snip
This is called the "Ahn Woon". And it's more of a leather-strap bolo with tassels on each end, about six feet long.
Do we have an official transliteration of the word? So that I can write it in English?
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Old June 17 2013, 02:37 AM   #43
feek61
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Re: The Revised Starfleet Technical Manual/ Starship Enterprise (NCC-1

Mario de Monti wrote: View Post
feek61 wrote: View Post
The size of the ship was doubled from the first pilot episode to the production episodes. They modified the miniatures buy adding a second row of windows around the saucer edge; thus making it appear as two decks instead of one (since the pilot version only had one row of windows around the perimeter of the saucer). Also shortening up the bridge was done to be more in scale with a ship twice the original proposed size.
Im not sure about that. While its true, that the first model had only one row of windows in the rim of the saucer, that row was at the same relative height as in the 11-foot production model. Likewise the relative size of the windows stayed basically the same, as did the placement and spacing of window rows in the secondary hull.

Thus it seems unlikely IMHO, that the "Kirk-Enterprise" was intended to be twice the size of the "Pike-Enterprise".

Mario
I was speaking only from a TV production point-of-view; not anything having to do with actual show stories. The miniatures were modified to reflect the 430 crewmen by adding additional windows and other things like lowering the bridge to keep it in scale as much as they could for a model that was already built. Sorry for any confusion
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Old June 17 2013, 06:33 PM   #44
FormerLurker
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Re: The Revised Starfleet Technical Manual/ Starship Enterprise (NCC-1

Irishman wrote: View Post
FormerLurker wrote: View Post
Irishman wrote: View Post
The master list updated to add:
snip

95. Vulcan cat'o'nine tails ("Arvun"?)

snip
This is called the "Ahn Woon". And it's more of a leather-strap bolo with tassels on each end, about six feet long.
Do we have an official transliteration of the word? So that I can write it in English?
As I understand it, "Ahn Woon" is the spelling from the shooting script. At any rate, that is the spelling from James Blish's adaptation, and he probably used the one he found in the script he was given to adapt.
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Old July 8 2013, 05:04 PM   #45
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Re: The Revised Starfleet Technical Manual/ Starship Enterprise (NCC-1

I want Scotty's engineering ruler, that tuning fork wrench of his, and that trident looking machine.
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