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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old June 11 2013, 10:17 PM   #136
iguana_tonante
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

suarezguy wrote: View Post
If people truly worship their political leaders and otherwise feel they should be treated as gods, even while admitting they didn't create the universe, why shouldn't that be regarded as a creator-less religion (especially if they feel the question of a universe creator is irrelevant)?
No.
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Old June 11 2013, 10:51 PM   #137
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
Everybody knows that Roddenberry was against religion; that's part of his script for the aborted Star Trek movie The God Thing (which later became the basis for Star Trek V: The Final Frontier.) When did he say that he was for it, or that Braga was wrong?
Wrong. GR's personal beliefs--already noted here time and again--did not indicate his being "against religion" all along, but the opposite well into the 1970s. There's no point in believing the sweeping myth (and ignoring history) some use to suit their own worldview.
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Old June 12 2013, 04:45 AM   #138
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

So, I'm beginning to see more clearly now that the ancient astronaut theorist and the vicious gaytheist fanboy throngs are the ones to watch out for. Kindly forgive my tardy reply, but s/o brought home a lovely bottle of wine last night and I got a little too drunky brewster to post anything, anywhere.

Lance wrote: View Post
My reading is that in Kirk's time there are religions, both Earth based and those of other planets, and that people do believe in deitys etc... but just that the people who believe and the people who don't believe aren't in conflict with each other anymore. Everybody just respects everybody else's P-O-V.
WANT... for this thread plz.

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Shawnster wrote: View Post
Tell me what you believe, not what you don't.
Why?
Why not?

stj wrote: View Post
I was just reading Paul Levinson's The Plot to Save Socrates, which alludes to Hypatia. Hypatia was a pagan philosopher and mathematician in Byzantine Alexandria during the reign of the regent empress Pulcheria and the floruit of St. Cyril. A Christian crowd seized her from the streets and dragged her into a Christian church. There they stripped her. Then, the reports differ, they either beat her to death (or stoned her) with tiles, or they scraped her flesh from her bones with oyster shells. (The difference hinges on the contextual meaning of word that can mean either.) Her body was hacked to pieces and burnt. Enjoy the happy thoughts!
I suppose that being lynched to death was not much of a rarity during antiquity, but when presented with such cases, I usually think "maybe she had it coming." There are divergent historical accounts of the event, but none of us were there to witness it, and hence no proof, right? One can suppose from her works that the lifelong ambition of Madalyn Murray O'Hair was total separation from God. And I think it became a self-fulfilling prophecy in that instance. Perhaps Hypatia was an idolatress, or had some other death wish for complete separation from God. Hard to know for sure, but I do know I'd not much prefer to go out like MMO or Hypatia.

stj wrote: View Post
The electromagnetic vector potential is an unobservable, to date (i.e., the last time I looked.) But you're not Dr. Lester, so I'm quite sure that you will not accept one example. Let me add then, the past. And, here's a third, society.
Yeah, but you know I put my question about the application of science to the unobservable and the incalculable in the conjunctive. Are you saying science has considered the electromagnetic vector potential without performing computations or making determinations? Perhaps you could elucidate us as to why there is no collectable data available on the past and society. Maybe archaeologists believe otherwise.

stj wrote: View Post
As for the "incalculable," this apparently means "deterministic," which rather overlooks the role of statistics in science.
It is apparent only to those familiarized with the concept of synonyms.

I have always thought that atheists shared several beliefs in common. They must believe their existence has its origin in something other than their Creator. Would it not also be a belief to think that matter has the ability to arrange itself over zillions of years into increasingly complex forms? I also identify as a belief that the four fundamental forces, and the Earth's orbit, being precisely balanced for life on this planet must be one hellofa coincidence.

If you disbelieve in God, and another disbelieves in atheism, why can't each respect the other's disbelief?

I have no qualms with anybody defining their own beliefs or lack thereof. This is part of what freedom of religion means. What I think is pret-ty sad is redefining entries in the dictionary, or otherwise engaging in semantics, to justify intolerance... on an internet messageboard (!!!). I agree that the term "Bible thumper" is vitriolic and disparaging. It's just hard to see how anyone can roll up into this thread and atheist thump all they want out of one side of their mouth, and gripe about Bible thumping out of the other side.

Bread and Circuses illustrates a good point. Spock came to the wrong conclusion based on observation of the available facts. It wasn't until Uhura added in the missing fact, the missing piece of the puzzle, that those on the bridge realized they reached an erroneous conclusion about the sun/Son. Two hundred years from now, mankind could most likely think that what science teaches us today is outmoded and maybe even silly, just like we think about many scientific notions 200 years before us. I can't put my full faith in that. Nobody in this thread has solved all the mysteries of the universe, and collected all the pieces to the puzzle of our existence. Without the missing facts, anyone is prone to make an erroneous conclusion, just like sciency Spock.

Didn't science once inform us that the universe was infinite, and at other times limited, that the data shows the universe was expanding, and sometimes the conclusion is that it is contracting?

The atheists posting in this thread have not agreed among themselves what they disbelieve other than God's existence, and what, if anything, they do believe in. I give MMO a tremendous amount of credit in the promotion of atheism, and she is probably qualified to pontificate on what atheism is or isn't just as well as anyone else, probably better. When she says that atheists love themselves, their fellow man, and no god, that doesn't seem to me to leave much room for abounding love. Atheists do not return God's love. Many atheists in this thread won't love their fellow post-ers without pre-approval of their beliefs. So that leaves loving yourself, something a little selfish. Perhaps this accounts in part for the lack of popularity of atheism. Atheism should offer something better. How about a little hope and selflessness? This being-hateful Herbert-to-the-hilt shtick is gross.

I come here to be entertained, to read the fun, to read the funny, to enjoy the creative. Like Gath said on VOY, "I don't enjoy being judged like this. It's very upsetting. Not at all pleasurable." It just seems like if we can't make this thread Trekker Lovefest 2013, an ongoing discussion is pointless and hopeless. Besides, if I'm ever going to make it to lt. cdr., I need to start making shorter posts, and perfecting my arguments as to why Janeway is both the best and the worst captain in the Starfleet seems a lot more appealing at this moment in time.

Thus, kindly allow me to leave you with some parting words of encouragement and the sort. First, if your knees are knocking before the Judge of the Living and of the Dead, the defense of "I disbelieve" or "I am faithless" may not be of too much help. Why not try harder? We can be "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth". "let God be true, but every man a liar". "seek, and you will find".

May God richly bless our bbs staff, and all those in this thread who express tolerance, hope for the future, peace, and above all, love of your fellow Trekkers.

So you see, that, as they say, is that.

kthxbai!

Peaceee,
Your Pal Seska
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Old June 12 2013, 05:01 AM   #139
MauriceNavidad
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

Seska wrote: View Post
So, I'm beginning to see more clearly now that the ancient astronaut theorist and the vicious gaytheist fanboy throngs are the ones to watch out for.
I'd ask you to kindly explain this phrase, especially "gaytheist".
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Old June 12 2013, 05:16 AM   #140
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

Maurice wrote: View Post
Seska wrote: View Post
So, I'm beginning to see more clearly now that the ancient astronaut theorist and the vicious gaytheist fanboy throngs are the ones to watch out for.
I'd ask you to kindly explain phrase, especially "gaytheist".
New word. I'm trying to parse it's meaning and failing.
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Old June 12 2013, 05:24 AM   #141
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

Seska wrote: View Post
Many atheists in this thread won't love their fellow post-ers without pre-approval of their beliefs.
I really don't see any evidence that this is so. Your statement is both presumptuous and prejudiced.

I give MMO a tremendous amount of credit in the promotion of atheism
I already explicitly stated that American Atheists does not speak for atheists. By extension, that would mean that Madalyn Murray O'Hair (whom I presume you mean by the initials MMO) didn't speak for all atheists when she was alive. Did you disbelieve me, or did you somehow accidentally skip over my posts?

If you believed me, then why assume that atheists generally agree with her positions. If not, then why not?

American Atheists has about 4,000 members. Assuming only 1 in 100 people in the world are atheists (a gross underestimate), there are over 3,000,000 atheists in the USA (assuming uniform distribution; no matter, the actual figure is larger) and over 60,000,000 atheists worldwide (again, the actual figure is larger). Does that put it into perspective how little weight American Atheists has in the atheist community?

From the Washington Post, earlier this year:

The Washington Post wrote:
That challenge has potential pitfalls. American Atheists membership is 4,000, Silverman said — a small sliver of the 2.4 percent of Americans who identified as atheists in a 2012 survey by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life. Less strident groups are larger: the Freedom from Religion Foundation claims more than 19,000 members, and the American Humanist Association claims 40,000.

A’forum to vent’

Phil Zuckerman, a professor of sociology at Pitzer College and an expert on secularism, said that while he applauds the passion and purpose of O’Hair’s acolytes, they do not represent mainstream atheism.

“There is a place for American Atheists, definitely, but clearly, most atheists are not angry, do not hate religion and do not need a forum to vent,” he said. “I think the fact that their numbers are so low shows that the strident, aggressive version of atheism is a distinct minority.”
The atheists I choose to associate with don't hold a person's religion against them. Their issue with religion only comes when people can't keep their religions to themselves.

When you repeatedly misrepresent people's positions, even after corrections and clarifications have been offered, don't be surprised if people aren't willing to interact on your terms.
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Old June 12 2013, 05:37 AM   #142
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

OK guys, let's keep this tied in with Bread and Circuses. General religion belongs in another forum.
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Old June 12 2013, 02:07 PM   #143
stj
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

T'Bonz wrote: View Post
OK guys, let's keep this tied in with Bread and Circuses. General religion belongs in another forum.
We hear and obey, mistress.

Seska wrote: View Post
Bread and Circuses illustrates a good point. Spock came to the wrong conclusion based on observation of the available facts. It wasn't until Uhura added in the missing fact, the missing piece of the puzzle, that those on the bridge realized they reached an erroneous conclusion about the sun/Son.
Again, it was Kirk and McCoy and Spock who all assumed the Sun was worshipped. It was Spock who found that puzzling. Chalk one up for "sciencey." It is a misreading of the episode to pretend that Spock comes off poorly. He especially does not engage in nonconsensual intercourse with a slave!

Another misreading of the episode takes McCoy's talk of Gabriel as a genuine religious reference. It was instead a foreshadowing of the temptation to power theme. McCoy's puckish desire to announce that he was the archangel Gabriel was not to legitimately preach, but to swindle the listeners. The joke was that they could land and pretend to be divine and enjoy the adulation. As I say, a foreshadowing.

Two hundred years from now, mankind could most likely think that what science teaches us today is outmoded and maybe even silly, just like we think about many scientific notions 200 years before us. I can't put my full faith in that. Nobody in this thread has solved all the mysteries of the universe, and collected all the pieces to the puzzle of our existence. Without the missing facts, anyone is prone to make an erroneous conclusion, just like sciency Spock.
The facts we already have rule out many erroneous conclusions, which includes the factual claims of every religion I know about. You're like a Scientologist claiming that further scientific advancement might confirm the existence of Xenu and Thetans. Even the changes in explanations for those facts (theories, that is) are exaggerated. In everyday life we still use Newtonian mechanics and it's over 300 years old!

Didn't science once inform us that the universe was infinite, and at other times limited, that the data shows the universe was expanding, and sometimes the conclusion is that it is contracting?
No, modern science has regarded this question as open. Individual scientists had (and have) strong ideas but there wasn't a consensus in the scientific community. And there still isn't agreement between proponents of an infinite multiverse and a finite universe! As I understand it, Aristotle thought he had logically proven a finite universe. At times his thought has been regarded as authoritative. But modern science has understood since at least Galileo (i.e., about 400 years ago!) that Aristotle, a notable pioneer in logic, esthetics, social science and biology, was far too dedicated to common sense to be a good physicist.

But as an act of Christian love towards you, let me remind you of the fate of Rosa Luxemburg. This atheist woman lived in Berlin in 1919, part of the Spartakusbund, a left wing organization. After the German revolution of 1918, the Spartakusbund like every other group was engaged in struggle to determine the nature of the new regime. As I understand it, Luxemburg discouraged an attempt to seize power, substituting instead a campaign to occupy newspaper offices, in an effort to reach the masses and gain majority support. In January, she was arrested by soldiers. She was beaten. Then one butted her in the head with his rifle. When she fell, he then shot her. Her body was weighted with wires at the hands and feet, then dumped in a canal.

The sequelae are happy. The unit that slew this woman was incorporated into the Sturmabteilung. The soldiers involved were mostly unpunished at all, the triggerman sentenced to maximum two years (if he ever served his time I don't know.) Sadly, when the Communists came to power, they revived the case and punished whom they could (no death penalty if I remember correctly.) But even this unhappy turn of events had a happy ending. After the reunification, the judge who targeted the heroic soldiers was herself punished for her hideous miscarriage of justice.

Happy thoughts!
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Old June 12 2013, 02:17 PM   #144
iguana_tonante
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

Since T'Bonz asked, I'll drop it. Well, mostly.

Seska wrote: View Post
So, I'm beginning to see more clearly now that the ancient astronaut theorist and the vicious gaytheist fanboy throngs are the ones to watch out for.
What the fuck.

Seska wrote: View Post
[About Hypatia] I suppose that being lynched to death was not much of a rarity during antiquity, but when presented with such cases, I usually think "maybe she had it coming."
What. The. Fuck.
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Old June 12 2013, 02:45 PM   #145
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

Seska wrote: View Post
So, I'm beginning to see more clearly now that the ancient astronaut theorist and the vicious gaytheist fanboy throngs are the ones to watch out for.
I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here, but that kind of comment is out of line.


iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Since T'Bonz asked, I'll drop it. Well, mostly.

Seska wrote: View Post
So, I'm beginning to see more clearly now that the ancient astronaut theorist and the vicious gaytheist fanboy throngs are the ones to watch out for.
What the fuck.

Seska wrote: View Post
[About Hypatia] I suppose that being lynched to death was not much of a rarity during antiquity, but when presented with such cases, I usually think "maybe she had it coming."
What. The. Fuck.
When the Boss says drop it...drop it.

Thanks.

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Old June 12 2013, 02:54 PM   #146
iguana_tonante
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

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Old June 12 2013, 03:58 PM   #147
T'Grinch
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

Seska, warning for the slur.

There is no place for slurs of any type on the BBS.

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iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Since T'Bonz asked, I'll drop it. Well, mostly.
When I say drop it, I MEAN drop it. I'm really trying not to throw a warning on you for ignoring that. I was trying to get the thread back on track and calm things down and you had to have the last word because you were pissed at no warnings.


If we miss something that should be handled, do what you eventually did, mod notify. And give it time - we sleep, have to do things IRL etc. But DO NOT ignore what we say. We don't say our things to be dicks, but to keep things from escalating and spiraling out of control.

I think this thread has gone on long enough.
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