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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old June 11 2013, 11:36 PM   #76
Sran
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Re: Why Let Khan Live?

Sci wrote: View Post
Why not send Khan and company to a Federation prison?
I don't think a Federation prison could hold them. They took the Reliant without a problem.

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Old June 11 2013, 11:37 PM   #77
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Re: Why Let Khan Live?

^ Agreed. Khan would surely escape from any prison the Federation of that time could have built. Ananke Alpha doesn't exist yet...

And in the end, isn't it basically the best thing that the Federation returns Khan to exactly the same state at which they found him? Khan probably did get a trial, but that's the best sentence I can think of, really.
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Old June 11 2013, 11:43 PM   #78
Sran
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Re: Why Let Khan Live?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
And in the end, isn't it basically the best thing that the Federation returns Khan to exactly the same state at which they found him? Khan probably did get a trial, but that's the best sentence I can think of, really.
That's what I think. Who's to say that medical science doesn't advance far enough that someone- Bashir, for instance- is able to help Khan and his followers by modifying their behavior? Perhaps Bashir utilizes a procedure similar to what he used to treat Serena as a means of "curing" Khan. Keeping him and his people in stasis allows for that possibility.

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Old June 11 2013, 11:47 PM   #79
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Re: Why Let Khan Live?

I wonder if Abramsverse Samuel T. Cogley defended Khan at his trial. He'd probably love to take a case like that.
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Old June 11 2013, 11:56 PM   #80
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Re: Why Let Khan Live?

You're really gonna do this, Timo? You're really going down that road?

Timo wrote: View Post
Kirk and crew had NO INTENTION of getting involved, per the prime directive.
Exactly. But when his own life became threatened, he threw out the rulebook. As usual. Even though the Prime Directive actually says that when his life is threatened and there's no way out, he should die ("Omega Glory").
You know what KHAN does when his life is threatened? HE TRIES TO KILL EVERYONE. On two separate occasions we saw him set his ship/superweapon on self-destruct mode just to make sure that everyone -- enemies and allies alike -- would go down with him. In "Into Darkness" he sets his ship to try and crash into San Francisco just because Spock had outsmarted him. These actions establish a pattern that Khan is a murdering psychopath.

Accordingly, I suspect he did something similar in his domain on Earth when he was finally deposed, setting off nuclear warheads hidden in the major population centers his enemies had already captured. Nothing like a nuclear holocaust to mask the launch of a DY-100 class spaceship.

So, you think he and the entire crew of the Enterprise should have herded themselves into the disintegration chambers?
Yes. He swore an oath to do exactly that when he joined.
No he did not. The Prime Directive does not bind Starfleet officers to obey the laws of other cultures, especially cultures who are already aware of the existence of alien life. It's even questionable whether or not the prime directive actually applied to the Eminians for that very reason.

The Federation did that. Kirk did that. Had the Organians been real mortals, Kirk would have been their factual executioner.
Yes, Kirk put a gun to Kor's head and ORDERED him to round up hundreds of Organians and have them executed as an example to others.

Implying, of course, that the crew of Regula-1 "factually" tortured and murdered themselves by refusing to tell Khan where Genesis was.

Quite so - we are talking about excuses.
No, we are talking about the moral/immoral actions made by political and military officials. You can demonize a man for doing good things or celebrate a man for doing evil things, but that's ideology, not morality.

We have a pretty good understanding of what Khan's ideology is, and it's clear that Khan doesn't think he's doing anything wrong. Probably, neither do any of his followers. We also understand Kirk's ideology and we understand that Kirk and his followers don't think they're doing anything wrong. The difference between the two is what they respectively think isn't wrong. Khan believes that sabotage, terrorism, torture and mass murder are acceptable (possibly even preferable) means to achieve his goals. Kirk is not known to use torture and avoids killing people when possible. Their MORAL positions are not even comparable.

Kirk kills people for excuses' sake...
[citation needed]

Come to think of it, I'm seeing that Kirk's bodycount throughout the entire run of TOS and all of the TMP movies is amazingly low. He even makes a big deal out of not killing the Gorn because maybe -- just MAYBE -- they had a reason for doing what they did.

Abramsverse Kirk kills more people in the first movie than he did in his entire career in the Prime Timeline, and comes out of the second without a single confirmed kill.

Naah. You have merely demonstrated that you are a naiive person who could well be voted the Member Most Likely to Condone Genocide for a Good-Sounding Reason.
And yet if Kirk had ever ACTUALLY committed genocide, you might have a point. Khan, on the other hand, didn't merely threaten genocide, he was FAMOUS for it.

So it's a bit like comparing Lieutenant John Pike to Charles Whitman. The former may be a bit of an asshole, but that's a big stretch from climbing a clocktower and randomly shooting a bunch of people.

The trouble seems to be that you can't recognize TOS for what it objectively is: an ultra-conservative 1960s show about a military man who unquestioningly fights for a single philosophy and mercilessly stomps down others.
I've been on this board a lot of years, Timo, I've seen a lot of strange things come out of your posts, but this one in particular is gonna rate a special exhibit in the "Weird Shit Timo Comes Up With" hall of fame.
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Old June 12 2013, 12:01 AM   #81
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Re: Why Let Khan Live?

Trek is many things, but definitely not "ultra-conservative".

Kirk is many things, but DEFINITELY not "merciless"! Kirk has probably shown the MOST mercy out of any Trek captain, really.
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Old June 12 2013, 12:05 AM   #82
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Re: Why Let Khan Live?

^Not to overstep my bounds, but you might think about putting the reference to Star Trek Into Darkness under a spoiler heading. Not everyone has seen the movie yet.

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Old June 12 2013, 12:51 AM   #83
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Re: Why Let Khan Live?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
You're really gonna do this, Timo? You're really going down that road?
He couldn't resist I guess. I wasn't sure if it was merely to goad me on, desperate to twist things around until I give up my side of the argument because he might lose. Or, he's revealing a covert perspective about Star Trek he has been harboring that is rather paradoxical to the premise of the series.

The Prime Directive does not bind Starfleet officers to obey the laws of other cultures, especially cultures who are already aware of the existence of alien life. It's even questionable whether or not the prime directive actually applied to the Eminians for that very reason.
Just to clarify, Starfleet officers are expected to respect the laws of other cultures, but exceptions are permitted when warranted on a reasonable basis. Eminiar Seven did not disclose to the Enterprise that they are fighting a "theoretical war" and that the Enterprise is a target that could be "logically" hit. No, anyone in their right mind would know that for an outsider this must be explained as they'd instead expect a physical attack. This was never qualified by Anan. So the Enterprise was not truly explained the nature of the threat.


We have a pretty good understanding of what Khan's ideology is, and it's clear that Khan doesn't think he's doing anything wrong. Probably, neither do any of his followers. We also understand Kirk's ideology and we understand that Kirk and his followers don't think they're doing anything wrong. The difference between the two is what they respectively think isn't wrong. Khan believes that sabotage, terrorism, torture and mass murder are acceptable (possibly even preferable) means to achieve his goals. Kirk is not known to use torture and avoids killing people when possible. Their MORAL positions are not even comparable.
Thank you. This is pretty much what I've been saying, but our debate adversary here is hell bent on continuing down that twisted dirty road of incongruity... all in the name of avoiding the phrase "Ah OK, you're right--good point."

Timo wrote:
The trouble seems to be that you can't recognize TOS for what it objectively is: an ultra-conservative 1960s show about a military man who unquestioningly fights for a single philosophy and mercilessly stomps down others.
I've been on this board a lot of years, Timo, I've seen a lot of strange things come out of your posts, but this one in particular is gonna rate a special exhibit in the "Weird Shit Timo Comes Up With" hall of fame.
I'm glad to see that another TBBS veteran shares the same point of view. I've had one or two perplexing run-ins with Timo before, but this one "takes the cake". He will only give up a debate position if it's something incidental or not a key overreaching aspect. But something fundamental like the depiction of Khan... he chose a position and refuses to even budge, no matter how compelling the counter-argument. It is enough of an experience where I will now avoid debating with him in the future, because I don't want to risk the waste of time, going down a road that will not be productive to the enlightenment of Star Trek.
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Old June 12 2013, 04:32 AM   #84
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Re: Why Let Khan Live?

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Look at it this way, would you give a group of Hitlers, Stalins, and Napoleons their very own world? Seems to me it'd be safer just to waste them all.
This is called a "human rights violation." (Or, I suppose in the world of Star Trek, a "sentients' rights violation.") People have the right to live, even if they are monsters; killing someone is only acceptable in the act of immediate self-defense or the immediate defense of others.

Better question:

Why not send Khan and company to a Federation prison?
As was said in Ruling In Hell, Khan & Co. would simply take over a rehab colony/penal settlement (especially the one that was in New Zealand shown in the 'Caretaker' episode of Star Trek: Voyager) and then find a way to get free by contacting outside society and snagging transport to break out of the rehab colony/penal settlement; then instead of Wrath Of Khan, it would be Revenge of Khan, with likely the same result or a similar outcome of Khan encountering the Enterprise and her crew and fighting with them again.

The best way to deal with Khan and his fellow Augments would be to reform him and them with the device shown in the episode 'Dagger of the Mind' or with the technique mentioned by me previously as shown on Babylon 5, but neither exist in the general main continuity of Star Trek save for mentions in one or two of the early novels from Pocket Books (this also reminds me of what Arik Soong tried to do with some Augment embryos in the episode 'The Augments' of Enterprise by trying to modify them to be less 'Augment'-like.) So, we're stuck at square one about what to do with Khan & Co.
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Old June 12 2013, 05:12 PM   #85
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Re: Why Let Khan Live?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post

Timo wrote: View Post
The trouble seems to be that you can't recognize TOS for what it objectively is: an ultra-conservative 1960s show about a military man who unquestioningly fights for a single philosophy and mercilessly stomps down others.
I've been on this board a lot of years, Timo, I've seen a lot of strange things come out of your posts, but this one in particular is gonna rate a special exhibit in the "Weird Shit Timo Comes Up With" hall of fame.
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Old June 12 2013, 11:22 PM   #86
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Re: Why Let Khan Live?

Gary7 wrote: View Post
Just to clarify, Starfleet officers are expected to respect the laws of other cultures...
To the extent that the legal systems of recognized governments have jurisdiction over crimes committed in their territory. That's a LEGAL reality, not a Starfleet regulation; that would be binding on Kirk whether he was in Starfleet or not.

Ironically, Eminiar Seven makes for a case study in the applicability in Federation law, since technically the accidental targeting of the Enterprise would constitute an act of war. Strictly speaking, the Enteprise destroying their battle computers would be an appropriate counter-attack in the Federation's participation in that simulated war, especially since the loss of the computer eliminates the Eminian's ability to wage simulated war and thus Enterprise can declare simulated victory.

All the rest is just vandalism, for which Kirk probably received a bill and a reprimand from Commodore Wesley.

I'm glad to see that another TBBS veteran shares the same point of view.
Hell, I thought I was the only one.
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Old June 14 2013, 02:07 AM   #87
Praetor Baldric
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Re: Why Let Khan Live?

Sci wrote: View Post
Big Daddy wrote: View Post
Look at it this way, would you give a group of Hitlers, Stalins, and Napoleons their very own world? Seems to me it'd be safer just to waste them all.
This is called a "human rights violation." (Or, I suppose in the world of Star Trek, a "sentients' rights violation.") People have the right to live, even if they are monsters; killing someone is only acceptable in the act of immediate self-defense or the immediate defense of others.
Killing a megalomaniac and his followers who have a history of oppressing and killing others and who have shown intent to do so again would constitute killing "in the immediate defense of others" in my book. Sometimes human rights are revocable. Just ask a holocaust survivor what he/she would think about applying your philosophy to someone like Hitler. A wild animal cannot be reasoned with; sadly, the best solution is to have it put down. Khan is a defective mutation, an engineered virus to the body of civility. You don't protect a virus, you seek ways to neutralize and then annihilate it.
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Old June 14 2013, 02:12 AM   #88
Sran
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Re: Why Let Khan Live?

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You don't protect a virus, you seek ways to neutralize and then annihilate it.
Not necessarily. Viruses can be reworked to create vaccines. Allowing Khan and his people to live keeps open the possibility- however remote- that they could be rehabilitated.

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Old June 14 2013, 02:35 AM   #89
Praetor Baldric
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Re: Why Let Khan Live?

Sran wrote: View Post
Big Daddy wrote: View Post
You don't protect a virus, you seek ways to neutralize and then annihilate it.
Not necessarily. Viruses can be reworked to create vaccines. Allowing Khan and his people to live keeps open the possibility- however remote- that they could be rehabilitated.

--Sran
A sweet thought, but if after two hundred years in stasis, their first reaction is, "Hey, let's take over the universe" rehabilitation seems quite unlikely. Khan said it best himself in the episode:

KHAN: Captain, although your abilities intrigue me, you are quite honestly inferior. Mentally, physically. In fact, I am surprised how little improvement there has been in human evolution. Oh, there has been technical advancement, but, how little man himself has changed. [my emphases] Yes, it appears we will do well in your century, Captain. Do you have any other questions?

Not exactly the kind of guy who sounds open to rehabilitation.
I do appreciate your position that all life should be protected, but I just don't think it is realistic when applied to people (whether real or fictional) like Khan. Thankfully, psychos of this caliber are in the very very tiny minority.

Last edited by Praetor Baldric; June 14 2013 at 02:36 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old June 14 2013, 03:01 AM   #90
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Re: Why Let Khan Live?

^Suppose Khan's kept in stasis long enough to meet someone like Julian Bashir. He was able to help Serena Douglas. If a similar procedure were developed for Khan to modify his personality, it's possible he could've been changed for the better. I'm not saying it's likely, but it may have been possible.

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