RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,657
Posts: 5,428,862
Members: 24,813
Currently online: 503
Newest member: SB118_Pavlova


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old June 11 2013, 04:30 PM   #121
iguana_tonante
Admiral
 
iguana_tonante's Avatar
 
Location: Italy, EU
Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

suarezguy wrote: View Post
If you truly think a person or commandment trumps all other considerations (indeed, all alternatives are invalid) and people must live their lives around it, aren't they essentially "deifying" it (feeling and acting towards it as people traditionally have towards god)?
No.
__________________
Scientist. Gentleman. Teacher. Fighter. Lover. Father.
iguana_tonante is offline  
Old June 11 2013, 04:42 PM   #122
Admiral Buzzkill
Fleet Admiral
 
Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

Ovation wrote: View Post
suarezguy wrote: View Post
It's interesting to consider if atheism at least verges on religion when the "adherents" actively, let alone aggressively, try to proselytize (not collecting stamps isn't a hobby but actively bashing stamp-collecting, the Star Wars prequels (let alone a weekly show) or Nascar seem to at least be hobbies) or when they feel that atheism does demand or necessarily call for alternative ethical codes, most notably secular humanism.
Then any and all ideological movements would have to be classified as a religion. So no.
Exactly. All kinds of ideologies include atheism - Objectivism, for example, or "secular humanism" - none of which makes atheism in and of itself a belief system, much less a religion.

For his part, Gillette self-identifies as both an Objectivist and a libertarian.

The only world view that can be inferred directly from non-belief without adding something to it might be a kind of nihilism. Most people aren't comfortable with that, and have other things they believe in.
Admiral Buzzkill is offline  
Old June 11 2013, 04:49 PM   #123
Ovation
Vice Admiral
 
Location: La Belle Province or The Green Mountain State (depends on the day of the week)
Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

suarezguy wrote: View Post
If you truly think a person or commandment trumps all other considerations (indeed, all alternatives are invalid) and people must live their lives around it, aren't they essentially "deifying" it (feeling and acting towards it as people traditionally have towards god)? It is more obvious when the object of devotion is a particular person.
Still no. Religion is more than just proselytizing an idea (whether it is about a god or something else). The way you appear to want to define it, any movement that actively seeks to convince people it offers the best option for a given scenario (best political rule, best sports team, best way to educate and train, etc.) is the equivalent of a religion. That's a false equivalency and is often the prelude to intellectual dishonesty (of the kind usually practiced by creationists and promoters of "intelligent design" as a science).
Ovation is offline  
Old June 11 2013, 07:06 PM   #124
Hober Mallow
Commodore
 
Location: The planet Terminus, site of the Encyclopedia Foundation on the periphery of the galaxy
Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

prizzm wrote: View Post
Ovation wrote: View Post
Fair enough. But myths are not factual and therein lies much of the confusion in terms of responding to them. Greek mythology offered many truths but they did not represent a factual account of reality. It is the assertion that "there is a higher power" as a factual statement that sets off alarm bells. Such an assertion has no factual basis and thus no material basis. Hence, for some, a lie.
Myths may be unproved. They may be unprovable. But why assume that they are not factual, or at least have some factual basis?
Because then they wouldn't be myths. They'd be facts. Myth, religion, and art have to do with what can't be expressed in words. If you could just verbally express what you want to say, you don't need myth or art in which to say it. Myth by definition transcends all categories of thought.

One example: In the dim past people of several cultures believed that gods, or some supernormal people, mated with humans. Were these ancient people simpletons? Or could they have observed something, some fact, which motivated such belief? I don't know, but I'm not going to call them liars.
The brightest people of the nineteenth century believed light traveled as a wave through the medium of a "luminiferous ether." They weren't simpletons, they were describing the world in which they lived to the best of the scientific knowledge of the nineteenth century. It made sense; if light were a wave it would have to travel through something. Einstein later proved the ether to be entirely imaginary.

Scientists from the nineteenth century weren't wrong because they were stupid, they were wrong because they didn't yet possess the requisite knowledge to find the right answer. What would be stupid would be to, in the 21st century, to staunchly insist against the weight of all we've discovered and proved in the last century that the luminiferous ether still exists.
__________________
"Beep... beep!" --Captain Pike
Hober Mallow is offline  
Old June 11 2013, 07:53 PM   #125
suarezguy
Commodore
 
Location: Albuquerque, NM, USA
Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

Ovation wrote: View Post
Religion is more than just proselytizing an idea (whether it is about a god or something else). The way you appear to want to define it, any movement that actively seeks to convince people it offers the best option for a given scenario (best political rule, best sports team, best way to educate and train, etc.) is the equivalent of a religion.
Not just when you think or advocate that an idea about any matter is best but when it involves how you think people or society not only should but must act (and again, with all alternatives are seen as invalid).
If people truly worship their political leaders and otherwise feel they should be treated as gods, even while admitting they didn't create the universe, why shouldn't that be regarded as a creator-less religion (especially if they feel the question of a universe creator is irrelevant)?
__________________
"Barack Obama is the supremely qualified person whose opinion matters."-Joan Walsh
suarezguy is offline  
Old June 11 2013, 07:56 PM   #126
CorporalCaptain
Admiral
 
CorporalCaptain's Avatar
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

suarezguy wrote: View Post
Not just when you think or advocate that an idea about any matter is best but when it involves how you think people or society not only should but must act (and again, with all alternatives are seen as invalid).
Can you give an example, here, of which ideas and which advocates you're talking about?

If people truly worship their political leaders and otherwise feel they should be treated as gods, even while admitting they didn't create the universe, why shouldn't that be regarded as a creator-less religion (especially if they feel the question of a universe creator is irrelevant)?
Can you give an example, here, of which people and which leaders you're talking about?
__________________
John
CorporalCaptain is offline  
Old June 11 2013, 08:36 PM   #127
Timelord Victorious
TARDIS Janitor
 
Timelord Victorious's Avatar
 
Location: Germany, Earth, the Solar System
Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

If people truly worship their political leaders and otherwise feel they should be treated as gods, even while admitting they didn't create the universe, why shouldn't that be regarded as a creator-less religion (especially if they feel the question of a universe creator is irrelevant)?
Can you give an example, here, of which people and which leaders you're talking about?[/QUOTE]

North Koreans and their leader cult maybe? but I don't think that's what he meant.
Timelord Victorious is online now  
Old June 11 2013, 08:43 PM   #128
CorporalCaptain
Admiral
 
CorporalCaptain's Avatar
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

The grammar of "If people truly worship their political leaders" suggests that the speaker might have in mind more than a few isolated incidents, so really, I'd like to know more than a single example, for both that and the other thing about advocacy, in order to get a better understanding of what suarezguy is saying.
__________________
John
CorporalCaptain is offline  
Old June 11 2013, 09:03 PM   #129
Shawnster
Fleet Captain
 
Shawnster's Avatar
 
Location: Clinton, OH
Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

Well, I can't speak for suarezguy, but here are a few examples that I know of in regards people worshiping their political leaders:
Imperial Cult
An imperial cult is a form of state religion in which an emperor, or a dynasty of emperors (or rulers of another title), are worshipped as messiahs, demigods or deities. "Cult" here is used to mean "worship", not in the modern pejorative sense. The cult may be one of personality in the case of a newly arisen Euhemerus figure or one of national identity (e.g., Egyptian Pharaoh, Ethiopian Empire or Empire of Japan) or supranational identity in the case of a multi-ethnic state (e.g., Imperial Era China, Roman Empire). A divine king is a monarch who is held in a special religious significance by his subjects, and serves as both head of state and a deity or head religious figure. This system of government combines theocracy with an absolute monarchy.

The Wiki article goes on to list several ancient cultures that practiced this:

When discussing Japan, the Wiki states:

  • Arahitogami - the concept of a god who is a human being applied to the Shōwa Emperor (Emperor Hirohito as He was known in the Western World), up until the end of WWII.
So, we're talking up into the 20th century people were worshiping their political leader as a divine being or god in human form.


Sometimes worship depends upon your point of view. People may state that they do not worship a certain thing or person, yet they will devote their lives to this thing or individual to the exclusion of all else. These people may even live or die at the command of other individuals. It's these ambiguities over words and disagreements on definitions that cause a lot of confusion when talking about such things as religion, worship and leading a spiritual life.


For example, some may state that various cult leaders such as Charles Manson, Jim Jones or Marshall Applewhite were worshiped by their cult followers; whereas, others (most notably those cult followers) may deny that they worship these men but simply followed them as their leader. Of course, this is getting off track from the question about political leaders worshiped as divine.
Shawnster is online now  
Old June 11 2013, 09:12 PM   #130
CorporalCaptain
Admiral
 
CorporalCaptain's Avatar
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

So, what's the point? Imperial cults and divine kings are recognized as having occurred, even in the 20th century, .... and?
__________________
John
CorporalCaptain is offline  
Old June 11 2013, 09:20 PM   #131
YARN
Fleet Captain
 
Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
So, what's the point? Imperial cults and divine kings are recognized as having occurred, even in the 20th century, .... and?
But didn't you just ask for more examples?
YARN is offline  
Old June 11 2013, 09:26 PM   #132
CorporalCaptain
Admiral
 
CorporalCaptain's Avatar
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

Well, thanks to Shawnster for posting those examples, which are common knowledge. The question wasn't what are such examples, but rather, what examples does suarezguy have in mind, and what point is he trying to prove with them?

My most recent post was simply trying to express the idea that there's still no clue what he's trying to prove.

We'll just have to wait for him to let us know....
__________________
John
CorporalCaptain is offline  
Old June 11 2013, 09:30 PM   #133
Gov Kodos
Admiral
 
Gov Kodos's Avatar
 
Location: Gov Kodos Regretably far from Boston
Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
suarezguy wrote: View Post
If you truly think a person or commandment trumps all other considerations (indeed, all alternatives are invalid) and people must live their lives around it, aren't they essentially "deifying" it (feeling and acting towards it as people traditionally have towards god)?
No.
Indeed.
__________________
We are quicksilver, a fleeting shadow, a distant sound... our home has no boundaries beyond which we cannot pass. We live in music, in a flash of color... we live on the wind and in the sparkle of a star! Endora, Bewitched
Gov Kodos is offline  
Old June 11 2013, 09:32 PM   #134
YARN
Fleet Captain
 
Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Well, thanks to Shawnster for posting those examples, which are common knowledge. The question wasn't what are such examples, but rather, what examples does suarezguy have in mind, and what point is he trying to prove with them?

We'll just have to wait for him to let us know....
This thread is taking some weird turns.

My understanding of the episode was that it was basically a rip-off of an old sci-fi story about astronauts chasing after Jesus from world-to-world. I think the author was mentioned on page one.

One of the many problems with canon is the expectation of retroactive continuity between stories. In the late 1960s, you could not have a happy team of avowed atheists Trekking the stars. It's not just that technology changes in the real-world, making certain "futuristic devices" antiquated, but our moral sensibilities change too. Accept that it's just a show, and a show of it's time, and it is easier to shrug off these questions.
YARN is offline  
Old June 11 2013, 09:43 PM   #135
Ovation
Vice Admiral
 
Location: La Belle Province or The Green Mountain State (depends on the day of the week)
Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
, what examples does suarezguy have in mind, and what point is he trying to prove with them?

My most recent post was simply trying to express the idea that there's still no clue what he's trying to prove.

We'll just have to wait for him to let us know....
I suspect what he has in mind would be more suitable for discussion in TNZ, if past posts by him in that forum are any indication (I'll refrain from directly going down that path here as it is not the appropriate place).
Ovation is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:29 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.