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Old June 11 2013, 02:28 PM   #76
newtontomato539
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

I want J.J. Abrams to remake Lost in Space.
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Old June 11 2013, 02:40 PM   #77
Nerys Myk
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Why would that amazing you? I've read a variety of reasons why people enjoyed TOS. As I've aged different parts of the show appealed to me. The reasons I liked TOS when I seven are different than why I like TOS at 54. Mean spirited? In what way?
In the way that it treated the characters. Turning Kirk into a delinquent loser, Spock into a psycho (and Old Spock into a senile failure), Uhura into a bar babe who manipulates superior officers with sex, Scotty into a loser demoted to some useless space shack. Killing off the Vulcans. Bringing up Federation ethics only to mock them.

TOS told many types of stories. cherry picking the "thoughtful and mature" episodes don't really show the scope of storytelling in TOS. The characters are no more "morons, psychopaths and mental defectives" in the films than they were in the series. One could easily find example of all three in TOS episodes and films.
Not like the characters in the film. And TOS did tell many types of stories, but it has always been known as the show that at least attempted thoughtful, socially relevant SF (the Vietnam metaphors, the first "inter-racial" kiss et cetera)-- doing a revival written at the level of an Asylum movie does not strike me as consistent with any type of Trek-- not even "Spock's Brain."

The worst thing was that the whole "buckle up" response to an unimaginable holocaust left me with a chill down my spine and a sick feeling in my stomach. Definitely the anti-Trek for me.
Not sure what you're talking about here.
These people not only witnessed, but failed to prevent, the destruction of Vulcan and the deaths of its six billion inhabitants. They frowned a moment and then skipped happily off to the next holocaust. In real life, people who witnessed the terrorist attacks in 2001 ("only" 3000 people) are still suffering emotional issues twelve years later. In nuTrek, it not only rolls right off the characters, but Starfleet chooses to keep them together on the flagship of their depleted fleet under the command of a 25-year-old loser they were about to kick out of the academy. This is weird and creepy behavior, to say the least.
You're distilling the characters and plots down to elements that fit your opinion. Its rather disingenuous. Especially referring to Uhura as " a bar babe who manipulates superior officers with sex" which isn't really supported by what was seen in the film and is the most salacious interpretation of what was seen.

Star Trek (TOS in particular) has rarely dealt well with the repercussions of the events the crew has experienced. The laugh on the bridge scene that ends several episodes is a prime example of this. So your second point is a nonstarter.
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Old June 11 2013, 02:47 PM   #78
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

Genetic engineering has been an interesting, because relevant, SF theme since Brave New World.

However, this has nothing to do with the newest Abrams' blockbuster. That Khan is not a madman, nor is he a terrorist. He's merely an operative for an admiral trying to instigate a war. Since the issues of war and peace are not actually dramatized, that's not relevant either. I admit that Kirk coming out against war is nicer than the Kirk who kills people about to die for the fun of it, but this is not particularly relevant.

In fact, since preventive war has been pronounced policy, the movie pretty much dodges any possible relevance. It's just the adventures of Space Cocksman and Stick-Up-His-Ass. Apparently lot's of people have been watching Star Trek that way all along. Apparently I've been overrating the show for years now.

As for the notion that it's all subjective? The question then is why people who think that post anything. All they need is a letter grade or some number of stars.

I don't think we can honestly say that you can't be objective (not perfectly objective, that's a nonsense standard designed to forestall criticism.) You can say something meaningful about plot logic, rationality (or lack of) character motivation, the quality of music, the originality in us of 3D, an actor's skill in performance, etc. in a way that we really must concede to be objective.

But these individual elements are not transitive. We cannot neatly order these aspects in such a way as to weight the relative contributions, then sum to a more or less objective amount of artistic goodness. For example, it is an objective fact that much of the last movie was devoted to staging variations on high points in The Wrath of Khan. As such, it is incontestably derivative. What cannot be objectively rated is how much this adds or detracts from the effect of the movie.
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Old June 11 2013, 07:26 PM   #79
Konata Izumi
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

stj wrote: View Post
For example, it is an objective fact that much of the last movie was devoted to staging variations on high points in The Wrath of Khan. As such, it is incontestably derivative. What cannot be objectively rated is how much this adds or detracts from the effect of the movie.
I found the device of nostalgia to heighten the experience personally. Possibly the loudness and excess too as they were thankfully rather well tuned, even if they make it harder to dare to watch it again.

stj wrote: View Post
He's merely an operative for an admiral trying to instigate a war.
The admiral is the main villain. AFAIK that's something many people are afraid of currently, even if they have been before too. Khan is a monster he created. The fact that even he can be more helpful at parts than the admiral, adds to the uncertain atmosphere of current war politics.

I do see the characters are a bit juvenile but I accept that as they are hugely younger versions than the TOS versions, and show promise.

There is wisdom in the movie's view on violence that is not often found in Hollywood action movies, that is worthy of Trek.
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Old June 11 2013, 10:40 PM   #80
RJDiogenes
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

Well said, stj.

DarthTom wrote: View Post
You don't think that global terrorism committed by a genetically enhanced mad man isn't, "socially relevant," today?
I haven't seen the second movie, but I certainly agree that is a socially relevant topic.

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
You're distilling the characters and plots down to elements that fit your opinion. Its rather disingenuous. Especially referring to Uhura as " a bar babe who manipulates superior officers with sex" which isn't really supported by what was seen in the film and is the most salacious interpretation of what was seen.
Nevertheless, it's true and consistent with the re-imagining of the characters as corrupt parodies of the originals (with the exception of McCoy-- and Chekov, I suppose).

Star Trek (TOS in particular) has rarely dealt well with the repercussions of the events the crew has experienced. The laugh on the bridge scene that ends several episodes is a prime example of this. So your second point is a nonstarter.
The only situation analogous to this that I can think of is in "The Doomsday Machine," in which several solar systems were destroyed. I believe they were unknown or uninhabited, but, in any case, the events were not witnessed firsthand by the crew, nor did they attempt to save anyone and fail. Commodore Decker, who witnessed the death of his crew of 400 on one of those planets, was literally driven mad by grief and helplessness.
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Old June 12 2013, 02:09 AM   #81
Nerys Myk
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
Well said, stj.

DarthTom wrote: View Post
You don't think that global terrorism committed by a genetically enhanced mad man isn't, "socially relevant," today?
I haven't seen the second movie, but I certainly agree that is a socially relevant topic.

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
You're distilling the characters and plots down to elements that fit your opinion. Its rather disingenuous. Especially referring to Uhura as " a bar babe who manipulates superior officers with sex" which isn't really supported by what was seen in the film and is the most salacious interpretation of what was seen.
Nevertheless, it's true and consistent with the re-imagining of the characters as corrupt parodies of the originals (with the exception of McCoy-- and Chekov, I suppose).
No its not. It's hyperbolic BS. If you think that a woman at a bar picking up drinks for a her friends, who is hit by a guy and uses humor and sarcasm to shut him down is a "bar babe". Then I think you might want to turn in your feminist card. Ditto, if you assume that a woman who has scored in the top of her class and expects a position commensurate with that, challenges the person who gives her a lesser position. Nothing in their exchange implies Uhura was manipulating Spock through sex. That you think so speaks to your opinion of women, which doesn't seem very positive. Get your mind out of that gutter in the 1950s.

You called Kirk a "delinquent loser". Not seeing that. Yeah Pike does refer to Kirk as "genius-level repeat offender". Key word is 'genius", not "offender". He also gets through the Academy in three yeasr and found a way to beat the Kobayashi Maru test. Is he all that different than Prime Kirk? The guy who was described a "not a Boy Scout" by his ex. Who also beat the Koyayashi Maru (Prime McCoy called it cheating). He regularly defied orders, pissed high level bureaucrat and gained a reputation as a "cowboy."

Scotty's a "loser" because he got a punishment assignment because a piss off an Admiral while trying prove an engineering theory he had? This is the guy who's Prime counterpart transported a herd of tribbles on to a Klingon ship (with out informing his CO), threw the first punch in a bar fight and sabotaged a Federation ship (to aid in the hijacking of another)

Spock is a psycho? Was Prime Spock a psycho when he suggested they kill Gary Mitchell? When he rigged a torpedo to kill Chang? When he hijacked the ship on several occasions. When he tried to kill his commanding officer, more than once? When he threatened to kill McCoy?

Star Trek (TOS in particular) has rarely dealt well with the repercussions of the events the crew has experienced. The laugh on the bridge scene that ends several episodes is a prime example of this. So your second point is a nonstarter.
The only situation analogous to this that I can think of is in "The Doomsday Machine," in which several solar systems were destroyed. I believe they were unknown or uninhabited, but, in any case, the events were not witnessed firsthand by the crew, nor did they attempt to save anyone and fail. Commodore Decker, who witnessed the death of his crew of 400 on one of those planets, was literally driven mad by grief and helplessness.
Operation: Annihilate! ends with this exchange:

Operation: Annihilate! wrote:
KIRK: Bones.
(Later.)
KIRK: Yeoman, record this for Starfleet Command.
ZAHRA: Ready, sir.
KIRK: The alien creatures on Deneva have been destroyed
ZAHRA: Captain, look. Mister Spock.
(Spock walks onto the Bridge, followed by McCoy.)
KIRK: Spock. You can see.
MCCOY: The blindness was temporary, Jim. There's something about his optical nerves which aren't the same as a human's.
SPOCK: An hereditary trait, Captain. The brightness of the Vulcan sun has caused the development of an inner eyelid, which acts as a shield against high-intensity light. Totally instinctive, Doctor. We tend to ignore it, as you ignore your own appendix.
KIRK: Mister Spock. Regaining eyesight would be an emotional experience for most. You, I presume, felt nothing?
SPOCK: Quite the contrary, Captain. I had a very strong reaction. My first sight was the face of Doctor McCoy bending over me.
MCCOY: 'Tis a pity your brief blindness did not increase your appreciation for beauty, Mister Spock.
KIRK: If you gentlemen are finished, would you mind laying in a course for Starbase Ten, Mister Spock?
SPOCK: My pleasure, Captain.
MCCOY: Unusual eye arrangement. I might've known he'd turn up with something like that.
KIRK: What's that, Doctor?
MCCOY: I said, please don't tell Spock I said he was the best first officer in the fleet.
SPOCK: Why, thank you, Doctor McCoy.
KIRK: You've been so concerned about his Vulcan eyes, Doctor, you forgot about his Vulcan ears. Ahead warp factor one, Mister Sulu.
SULU: Warp factor one, sir.
A bit light, considering that among the victims spread out over several star systems, are Kirk's brother and sister in law. ( and possibly his other nephews).
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Old June 12 2013, 02:56 AM   #82
Kestrel
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
Nevertheless, it's true and consistent with the re-imagining of the characters as corrupt parodies of the originals (with the exception of McCoy-- and Chekov, I suppose).
No its not. It's hyperbolic BS. If you think that a woman at a bar picking up drinks for a her friends, who is hit by a guy and uses humor and sarcasm to shut him down is a "bar babe". Then I think you might want to turn in your feminist card. Ditto, if you assume that a woman who has scored in the top of her class and expects a position commensurate with that, challenges the person who gives her a lesser position. Nothing in their exchange implies Uhura was manipulating Spock through sex. That you think so speaks to your opinion of women, which doesn't seem very positive. Get your mind out of that gutter in the 1950s.
Also, recall that she's assigned to Farragut in the first place because of Spock attempting to avoid an appearance of favoritism. Rather than "manipulating him" it's a case of "Remember I'm not just your girlfriend, idiot, I'm also damned talented and I deserve to be on Enterprise."



ETA: Also, no JJ for Doctor Who! But that's because I want it to stay as British as possible in production, especially the directors and producers; I love his work otherwise.
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Old June 12 2013, 09:44 AM   #83
RJDiogenes
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
No its not. It's hyperbolic BS. If you think that a woman at a bar picking up drinks for a her friends, who is hit by a guy and uses humor and sarcasm to shut him down is a "bar babe". Then I think you might want to turn in your feminist card. Ditto, if you assume that a woman who has scored in the top of her class and expects a position commensurate with that, challenges the person who gives her a lesser position. Nothing in their exchange implies Uhura was manipulating Spock through sex. That you think so speaks to your opinion of women, which doesn't seem very positive. Get your mind out of that gutter in the 1950s.
Heh. No, resorting to political dodges won't change anything.

You called Kirk a "delinquent loser". Not seeing that. Yeah Pike does refer to Kirk as "genius-level repeat offender". Key word is 'genius", not "offender". He also gets through the Academy in three yeasr and found a way to beat the Kobayashi Maru test. Is he all that different than Prime Kirk? The guy who was described a "not a Boy Scout" by his ex. Who also beat the Koyayashi Maru (Prime McCoy called it cheating). He regularly defied orders, pissed high level bureaucrat and gained a reputation as a "cowboy."
Interesting, because he was deliberately portrayed as a delinquent loser by the writers-- that was their purpose in killing off his father. In the original universe, he was a "positively grim" student. He beat the Kobayashi Maru by finding a way to beat the no-win scenario that they hadn't thought of-- nuKirk simply hacked the program and caused the Klingons to blow up for no reason. He was going to be kicked out of the academy for it, not given a commendation for original thinking.

Scotty's a "loser" because he got a punishment assignment because a piss off an Admiral while trying prove an engineering theory he had?
Yup, he was stuck in solitary confinement in some useless job.

Spock is a psycho? Was Prime Spock a psycho when he suggested they kill Gary Mitchell? When he rigged a torpedo to kill Chang? When he hijacked the ship on several occasions. When he tried to kill his commanding officer, more than once? When he threatened to kill McCoy?
Yes, he tried to kill Kirk twice. Premeditated the first time, since he had the option of the brig or confinement to quarters or sick bay, rather than shoot him off alone to crash on a hostile planet.

A bit light, considering that among the victims spread out over several star systems, are Kirk's brother and sister in law. ( and possibly his other nephews).
People often need a light moment after a traumatic experience. That situation is not even slightly analogous.

And, since you're getting so bent out of shape about the whole thing, I really have no interest in going over it all again and again.
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Old June 12 2013, 10:49 AM   #84
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
Uhura into a bar babe who manipulates superior officers with sex
But throughout the new Star Trek films Uhura was exceptional. We had a testimony by Spock of her abilities as a cadet, way before he was burdened by the destruction of Vulcan – and there's no reason to doubt his judgement. We saw her replace the acting communications officer because he was unqualified for the mission. We saw her take on exotic alien languages with ease, at short notice in extremely stressful circumstances. She was seen maintaining composure when other crewmen were losing it, participating in combat, and repeatedly proving she deserves a position on the flagship. That's more credit than TOS episodes have usually given her.

Characterising that as a "bar babe who manipulates superior officers with sex" is painfully unfair.
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Old June 12 2013, 10:54 AM   #85
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

Women have no business flirting. Oh, she didn't in the bar. Then, getting on Enterprise. Oh, she stood on her credentials. She's too cute.
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Old June 12 2013, 11:18 AM   #86
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

Seriously what the heck? Where is the Kirk criticism if we are going to start bashing characters for flirting and having sexual relationships? And that's both Kirks, Nu and Prime.

A bar babe, did you even see the movie?
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Old June 12 2013, 11:20 AM   #87
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

Well, Pine is a bar babe.
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Old June 12 2013, 11:23 AM   #88
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

The romance with Spock is dumb but otherwise NuUhura is an OK character. She's just given far too much focus, which is a bit annoying as just about everybody prefers McCoy and Scotty.

I think the issue we have is that Star Trek has never really been a loud, dumb, adrenaline ride. The writing is now an afterthought, when it used to be the driving force of the series. I actually like the stagey feel of the TV series, and feel uncomfortable seeing Star Trek resemble Bayformers.
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Old June 12 2013, 06:23 PM   #89
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
Interesting, because he was deliberately portrayed as a delinquent loser by the writers-- that was their purpose in killing off his father. In the original universe, he was a "positively grim" student. He beat the Kobayashi Maru by finding a way to beat the no-win scenario that they hadn't thought of-- nuKirk simply hacked the program and caused the Klingons to blow up for no reason. He was going to be kicked out of the academy for it, not given a commendation for original thinking.
Kirk reprogrammed the test to make it possible to save the ship...

Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan wrote:
McCOY: Lieutenant, you are looking at the only Starfleet cadet who ever beat the no-win scenario.
SAAVIK: How?
KIRK: I reprogrammed the simulation so it was possible to rescue the ship.
SAAVIK: What?
DAVID: He cheated!
KIRK: I changed the conditions of the test. I got a commendation for original thinking. ...I don't like to lose.
Prime Kirk hacked the simulation as well...
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Old June 12 2013, 06:28 PM   #90
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

And McCoy said the board would rule in his favour, allowing him to stay on, most likely a reference to that commendation, only this time the semester was cut short by the Vulcan incident.
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