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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old June 10 2013, 09:14 PM   #31
Lt. Cheka Wey
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Re: I thought they said the JJ-comics were canon?

It's pretty easy. Teh universe is a bigplace, too bad does not have 25000 years to play with ike SW. 30000 if you include the Rakata.
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Old June 11 2013, 02:27 AM   #32
Hober Mallow
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Re: I thought they said the JJ-comics were canon?

R. Star wrote: View Post
People put too much stock into what is and isn't canon. Given the creators and producers can't come to a consensus, why should we?
Having to defer to a central authority on which fiction is "real" and which is the "fake fiction" is beyond silly.
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Old June 11 2013, 03:10 AM   #33
Christopher
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Re: I thought they said the JJ-comics were canon?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Having to defer to a central authority on which fiction is "real" and which is the "fake fiction" is beyond silly.
It's only silly because there is no such "central authority" in the first place. No studio is going to pay someone a salary to sit around and issue instructions to the general public about what they're allowed to like. That's a complete myth and a complete misunderstanding. Canon is not a command or a policy or a regulation. It's just a description. The creators of a fictional franchise create their work, and that is something we call the canon. And no, that does not mean "real." Canons contradict and rewrite their own pasts all the time, because it's not real and thus can be changed and rethought and improved.

And no, canon absolutely is not something that tells audiences they should only like some things and not others. Where's the percentage in telling your audience not to buy books or comics that would put more money in your coffers? The only people who use "canon" as a standard of what's admissible to enjoy are fans who impose that standard on themselves, and delude themselves into thinking they're being instructed by some higher authority.

The reason that tie-ins aren't binding on canon isn't a matter of some "central authority" handing down ukases. It's simply a matter of practicality. Like I said above, no matter how hard you try to keep tie-ins consistent with an ongoing canon, a work of fiction is just too much of a moving target, evolving in unpredictable ways. So there has to be a core work that sets the pace and secondary works that follow its lead and risk being left behind when it veers in an unexpected direction. It's just the nature of the beast. It's not something that's dictated by some imaginary studio department or government agency or whatever; it's just the way the process happens.
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Old June 11 2013, 08:33 AM   #34
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Re: I thought they said the JJ-comics were canon?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Having to defer to a central authority on which fiction is "real" and which is the "fake fiction" is beyond silly.
But the reverse is also silly. Imagine telling a Hollywood screenwriter that his new movie script can't be used because its whole premise was invalidated by a few panels in a tie-in comic that was seen by less than 1% of the viewing audience and has been out of print since 1972.
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Old June 11 2013, 09:22 AM   #35
Lt. Cheka Wey
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Re: I thought they said the JJ-comics were canon?

or an episde of an obscure TNG episode. I am pretty sure that happened in Trek.
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Old June 11 2013, 03:47 PM   #36
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Re: I thought they said the JJ-comics were canon?

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Having to defer to a central authority on which fiction is "real" and which is the "fake fiction" is beyond silly.
But the reverse is also silly. Imagine telling a Hollywood screenwriter that his new movie script can't be used because its whole premise was invalidated by a few panels in a tie-in comic that was seen by less than 1% of the viewing audience and has been out of print since 1972.
Bingo. That's the whole thing in a nutshell. As I've written before, this isn't a philosophical or artistic choice; it's a simple matter of practicality. No one in their right mind is going to let a movie or TV episode intended for millions of viewers be affected by something that was written in an old Greg Cox novel fifteen years ago . . .
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Old June 11 2013, 06:12 PM   #37
Hober Mallow
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Re: I thought they said the JJ-comics were canon?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Having to defer to a central authority on which fiction is "real" and which is the "fake fiction" is beyond silly.
But the reverse is also silly. Imagine telling a Hollywood screenwriter that his new movie script can't be used because its whole premise was invalidated by a few panels in a tie-in comic that was seen by less than 1% of the viewing audience and has been out of print since 1972.
Bingo. That's the whole thing in a nutshell. As I've written before, this isn't a philosophical or artistic choice; it's a simple matter of practicality. No one in their right mind is going to let a movie or TV episode intended for millions of viewers be affected by something that was written in an old Greg Cox novel fifteen years ago . . .
But you know as well as anyone that there are a chunk of fans who enjoy a work of fiction set in the Star Trek universe less if it isn't authoritatively declared "canon." There are fans who, for some reason, need that distinction made by an outside arbiter. My point is that that's silly.

As Christopher said:
Christopher wrote: View Post
The only people who use "canon" as a standard of what's admissible to enjoy are fans who impose that standard on themselves, and delude themselves into thinking they're being instructed by some higher authority.
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Old June 11 2013, 06:21 PM   #38
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Re: I thought they said the JJ-comics were canon?

^Exactly. They believe in an "outside arbiter" that doesn't exist. It's not a matter of arbitration, just definition. Canon isn't a value judgment, it's just a thing that exists.

The silly part is when fans complain about this nonexistent central authority imposing restrictions on their enjoyment. They don't realize that the only people imposing restrictions are themselves.
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Old June 11 2013, 09:14 PM   #39
Hartzilla2007
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Re: I thought they said the JJ-comics were canon?

Christopher wrote: View Post
BrentMc wrote: View Post
Shoot, I thought they were canon too. I thought that was the point of the new comics being done by JJ's people.
The point was to keep them as consistent with canon as they could, which isn't the same thing as actually being part of the canon. But I think Bad Robot underestimated how difficult it would be to keep the tie-ins consistent with an ongoing canon.
Well so far they've done a decent job of it seeing as the only major contradictions are a few lines of dialogue.

Thats pretty much the level of effort into continuity most long running tv shows manage. Not to mention film series, book series, and ect.
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Old June 11 2013, 09:40 PM   #40
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Re: I thought they said the JJ-comics were canon?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Well so far they've done a decent job of it seeing as the only major contradictions are a few lines of dialogue.
Given how much information in both film and comics is conveyed exclusively through dialogue, what would you consider to be a more major contradiction?
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Old June 11 2013, 10:21 PM   #41
Lt. Cheka Wey
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Re: I thought they said the JJ-comics were canon?

Pike dying in the comics than showing up in the movie with no explanationj.
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Old June 11 2013, 10:38 PM   #42
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Re: I thought they said the JJ-comics were canon?

Lt. Cheka Wey wrote: View Post
Pike dying in the comics than showing up in the movie with no explanationj.
Pike died in the comics? That's news to me.
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Old June 11 2013, 11:09 PM   #43
Lt. Cheka Wey
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Re: I thought they said the JJ-comics were canon?

I was talking to Mr. Bennet.
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Old June 15 2013, 02:39 AM   #44
Hartzilla2007
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Re: I thought they said the JJ-comics were canon?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Well so far they've done a decent job of it seeing as the only major contradictions are a few lines of dialogue.
Given how much information in both film and comics is conveyed exclusively through dialogue, what would you consider to be a more major contradiction?
Lt. Cheka Wey wrote: View Post
Pike dying in the comics than showing up in the movie with no explanationj.
Or

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Old June 15 2013, 02:47 AM   #45
Christopher
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Re: I thought they said the JJ-comics were canon?

^Missing the point. I just found the phrasing odd because dialogue is the main way information is conveyed in comics and film (since narration seems to have fallen out of favor in both media these days).
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