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Old June 1 2013, 10:08 AM   #91
F. King Daniel
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Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

Although we haven't seen them, a lot of incredibly convoluted events must have taken place for the Mirror Universe characters to continually be in the same places as their Primeverse counterparts.

When all of humanity was enslaved by the Klingons and Cardassians a century ago yet the DS9 crew's counterparts are all interacting on and around the MU version of DS9 is at least as fishy as Kirk bumping into Scotty bumping into Old Spock who just happens to have a way to get them both back to the Enterprise.

I go with what Spock said in "City on the Edge of Forever"...

SPOCK: First, I believe we have about a week before McCoy arrives, but we can't be certain.

KIRK: Arrives where? Honolulu, Boise, San Diego? Why not Outer Mongolia, for that matter?

SPOCK: There is a theory. There could be some logic to the belief that time is fluid, like a river, with currents, eddies, backwash.

KIRK: And the same currents that swept McCoy to a certain time and place might sweep us there, too.

SPOCK: Unless that is true, Captain, we have no hope.
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Old June 1 2013, 12:31 PM   #92
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Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

There's a simpler answer: fiction.
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Old June 2 2013, 01:12 AM   #93
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Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

Regarding the probably two biggest "game-changers" of STID, the transwarp transporter and Khan's Blood:

Remember, we have seen exactly two instances of transwarp beaming happening successfully and exactly three instances of Khan's Blood working. From any perspective, science, medicine, engineering, that's not enough examples to come to any conclusions.

Transwarp transporter:

Given the lines in BoBW about matching velocities (as well as what longmagpie has said about Scotty's last depicted moments in Indistinguishable From Magic, in terms of TrekLit), it's pretty clear that the equation for transwarp beaming was developed after 2367, and probably after 2379 (since we never see anything from Starfleet like transwarp beaming in canon Trek before ST09) but before 2387. So we're already dealing with technology that's 120 years ahead of its time. And it's worth reiterating, as others have, that technology that can beam you from Earth ultimately to Kronos is not unheard of, in concept anyway, in Trekdom, just outside of Starfleet. Reverse-engineering?

Anyway, it's pretty easy to imagine how transwarp beaming across 100+ lightyears has an exponential energy cost curve; beaming one person takes a lot of energy, but beaming even ten people takes a LOT of energy, such that it becomes unfeasible. This would mean that transwarp beaming would be pretty useless for exploration: you just can't explore strange new worlds with a single landing party. (And what about needing a sickbay, for one?) Unless the writers want to radically change the way our characters get around the galaxy (and maybe they'll have good reasons to do so!), a thus far unique instance of this incredible technology isn't going to be a major game-changer for Star Trek.

(As for what happened in the movie, it seems pretty clear to me that it was TPTB's intention that Harrison beamed pretty much directly from Earth to Kronos, so I tend to go with that over ADF's interpretation in the novelization. I might mitigate my interpretation slightly by supposing the he routed himself through some installation's massive power source [like, maybe, S31's Jupiter station].)

Khan's Blood:

First, one of many gripes I've had with people nitpicking the film: McCoy didn't unfreeze one of the other Augments and just use their blood because he had zero evidence that their genetic enhancements would lead to their blood having similar regenerative properties. Khan was alive at the time and he knew Khan's blood worked in at least one case (I don't think he knew about Lucille Harewood), so that was the route he took. Any good scientist or doctor would've come to the same conclusion.

In any case, I don't think Khan's Blood is necessarily the miracle drug we might think it is. We know it could repair Kirk's radiation injuries, we know it could revive an apparently dead Tribble (I don't know how it died, since I haven't read the comics) and that it could heal a decidedly not-dead young girl. We can put aside the Harewood case, since she wasn't dead.

So we're left with a dead Tribble and a dead human who died hours earlier of radiation injuries. If you think about it, that's actually a pretty specific medical use. Khan's Blood can apparently be used to repair cellular damage, even after death if it's done relatively quickly in humans. (I assume Tribbles are much simpler biologically, given them a longer "shelf-life".) Very easy to believe that it wouldn't work after, say, 48 hours, or wouldn't cure gross-level injuries like a broken neck or spine.

In short, I don't think any story teller needs to worry about either of these things making it impossible to have drama in their narratives.
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Old June 2 2013, 03:45 AM   #94
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Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

Paper Moon wrote: View Post
Transwarp transporter:

Given the lines in BoBW about matching velocities (as well as what longmagpie has said about Scotty's last depicted moments in Indistinguishable From Magic, in terms of TrekLit), it's pretty clear that the equation for transwarp beaming was developed after 2367, and probably after 2379 (since we never see anything from Starfleet like transwarp beaming in canon Trek before ST09)
But Starfleet did understand the principle of the subspace transporter in "Bloodlines"; Geordi was able to use the technique to beam Picard to DaiMon Bok's ship. They simply chose not to use it because it was dangerous and impractical. It's the sort of thing you'd use only for emergencies or if you were desperate/determined enough to take the risk -- which is how we've seen "transwarp" beaming used so far in the movies.

So I still say Starfleet was probably aware of the principle well before 2370.

Anyway, it's pretty easy to imagine how transwarp beaming across 100+ lightyears has an exponential energy cost curve; beaming one person takes a lot of energy, but beaming even ten people takes a LOT of energy, such that it becomes unfeasible. This would mean that transwarp beaming would be pretty useless for exploration: you just can't explore strange new worlds with a single landing party.
Not to mention that it makes no sense to beam someplace you haven't been able to get a detailed scan of; it would be far too dangerous and impractical. Although it could perhaps be used to send robot probes out first.


First, one of many gripes I've had with people nitpicking the film: McCoy didn't unfreeze one of the other Augments and just use their blood because he had zero evidence that their genetic enhancements would lead to their blood having similar regenerative properties. Khan was alive at the time and he knew Khan's blood worked in at least one case (I don't think he knew about Lucille Harewood), so that was the route he took. Any good scientist or doctor would've come to the same conclusion.
Absolutely right. It's a plausible assumption that the other Augments could've had the same power, but it's still speculation until it's proven.

So we're left with a dead Tribble and a dead human who died hours earlier of radiation injuries. If you think about it, that's actually a pretty specific medical use. Khan's Blood can apparently be used to repair cellular damage, even after death if it's done relatively quickly in humans. (I assume Tribbles are much simpler biologically, given them a longer "shelf-life".) Very easy to believe that it wouldn't work after, say, 48 hours, or wouldn't cure gross-level injuries like a broken neck or spine.
I agree. Also, I'm not sure that something which regenerates the body's own cells would have the ability to kill an infection; indeed, what if it has the same growth-enhancing effect on the disease microbes or cancer cells that it does on the normal cells of the body? What if it creates a cancer risk when used on normal, non-Augmented humanoids? After all, cancer is just the body's normal cell-growth process running out of control.

Bottom line, there's no such thing as a wonder drug that cures every kind of life-threatening condition, since there are so many different ways for the body to fail. A treatment that's a miracle cure for some conditions might be useless or dangerous when used for other conditions or injuries.
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Old June 2 2013, 04:35 AM   #95
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Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

Christopher wrote: View Post
Paper Moon wrote: View Post
Transwarp transporter:

Given the lines in BoBW about matching velocities (as well as what longmagpie has said about Scotty's last depicted moments in Indistinguishable From Magic, in terms of TrekLit), it's pretty clear that the equation for transwarp beaming was developed after 2367, and probably after 2379 (since we never see anything from Starfleet like transwarp beaming in canon Trek before ST09)
But Starfleet did understand the principle of the subspace transporter in "Bloodlines"; Geordi was able to use the technique to beam Picard to DaiMon Bok's ship. They simply chose not to use it because it was dangerous and impractical. It's the sort of thing you'd use only for emergencies or if you were desperate/determined enough to take the risk -- which is how we've seen "transwarp" beaming used so far in the movies.

So I still say Starfleet was probably aware of the principle well before 2370.
My memory of "Bloodlines" is a little rusty, but from what I can recall and gather from MA, the subspace transporter would solve the distance problem posed by STID but not the relative motion problem posed by ST09 (and described in BoBW). So that leads me to think that the "transwarp equation" might have incorporated aspects of the subspace transporter, but be fundamentally based on a post-2379 discovery.

I agree that transwarp beaming does seem to be dangerous and somewhat impractical from how it's been used thus far, but I'm not sure it is so to the degree that you're implying. In STID, no one seems to react to Harrison's use of the transwarp transporter as if it were incredibly dangerous to do so. No one says anything like, "Wow, he must be nuts." So I'm not sure it was the writers' intention for the technology's use in these circumstances to be quite so extraordinary.

It's interesting, though, that you mention being "aware of the principle." The way Spock Prime's interaction with nuScotty in ST09 goes, we know that nuScotty came up with the idea of transwarp beaming sometime prior to 2258, possibly when he was still a cadet. From the way Spock Prime approached the question, we can infer that Scotty Prime also theorized transwarp beaming, probably at a similar time to his alternative counterpart. So Starfleet was most likely aware of the principle for over a century before someone, possibly Scotty Prime himself, developed it in the 24th century prior to 2387.

Christopher wrote: View Post
So we're left with a dead Tribble and a dead human who died hours earlier of radiation injuries. If you think about it, that's actually a pretty specific medical use. Khan's Blood can apparently be used to repair cellular damage, even after death if it's done relatively quickly in humans. (I assume Tribbles are much simpler biologically, given them a longer "shelf-life".) Very easy to believe that it wouldn't work after, say, 48 hours, or wouldn't cure gross-level injuries like a broken neck or spine.
I agree. Also, I'm not sure that something which regenerates the body's own cells would have the ability to kill an infection; indeed, what if it has the same growth-enhancing effect on the disease microbes or cancer cells that it does on the normal cells of the body? What if it creates a cancer risk when used on normal, non-Augmented humanoids? After all, cancer is just the body's normal cell-growth process running out of control.

Bottom line, there's no such thing as a wonder drug that cures every kind of life-threatening condition, since there are so many different ways for the body to fail. A treatment that's a miracle cure for some conditions might be useless or dangerous when used for other conditions or injuries.
Definitely agree with all that you've said. I hope someone, somewhere, runs with that cancer analogy. I think there's a great story in there. (Regarding the infection question, Khan's Blood might be useful for strengthening antibodies or the immune system in general. But your points remain.)

The writers could decide to run in the other direction and make Khan's Blood very versatile. That could be interesting, if done right. But they don't have to do so, and a lot of reviews I've seen of the movie seem to be arriving at the erroneous conclusion that Khan's Blood must be a universal panacea, and therefore something that detracts from the film.
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Old June 2 2013, 01:38 PM   #96
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Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

Paper Moon wrote: View Post
My memory of "Bloodlines" is a little rusty, but from what I can recall and gather from MA, the subspace transporter would solve the distance problem posed by STID but not the relative motion problem posed by ST09 (and described in BoBW). So that leads me to think that the "transwarp equation" might have incorporated aspects of the subspace transporter, but be fundamentally based on a post-2379 discovery.
Maybe. What a lot of people overlook is that the '09 movie used "transwarp" differently than it had been used before -- instead of using "trans-" in the sense of "beyond," as in a velocity faster than warp drive, it was using it in the sense of "across," as in across the warp barrier -- beaming from a (relatively) stationary location to a ship in warp drive. However, Into Darkness apparently forgot this, since it showed "transwarp" beaming being used to get from Earth to Kronos.


I agree that transwarp beaming does seem to be dangerous and somewhat impractical from how it's been used thus far, but I'm not sure it is so to the degree that you're implying. In STID, no one seems to react to Harrison's use of the transwarp transporter as if it were incredibly dangerous to do so. No one says anything like, "Wow, he must be nuts." So I'm not sure it was the writers' intention for the technology's use in these circumstances to be quite so extraordinary.
Given how many different writers with different assumptions have written Trek over the decades, you can't possibly reconcile all the inconsistencies unless you're willing to interpret things differently from how the writers intended, or to squint a little at some of the script details. Heck, there are countless detail-level contradictions throughout the canon, so the only way to be able to buy into the pretense that it's a single coherent universe is if you're willing to be flexible about details and gloss over the occasional inconsistency.

Besides, it's simple enough to rationalize just by the fact that they had more important things preoccupying them at that moment, like the murder of several members of the admiralty. And given that Harrison had just committed a couple of extremely violent acts, it kind of went without saying that he was fanatical, determined, and possibly insane. Heck, he was taking a huge risk by attacking a Starfleet facility so brazenly in the first place. So the fact that he'd take the added risk of using an experimental transporter wouldn't really have warranted surprise at that point.
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Old June 4 2013, 04:15 AM   #97
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Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

Christopher wrote: View Post
Paper Moon wrote: View Post
Anyway, it's pretty easy to imagine how transwarp beaming across 100+ lightyears has an exponential energy cost curve; beaming one person takes a lot of energy, but beaming even ten people takes a LOT of energy, such that it becomes unfeasible. This would mean that transwarp beaming would be pretty useless for exploration: you just can't explore strange new worlds with a single landing party.
Not to mention that it makes no sense to beam someplace you haven't been able to get a detailed scan of; it would be far too dangerous and impractical. Although it could perhaps be used to send robot probes out first.
Plus you can't take a transporter with you so if there isn't one where ever it is you are going, you're pretty much stuck there.
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Old June 4 2013, 04:48 AM   #98
Paper Moon
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Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

Christopher wrote: View Post
Paper Moon wrote: View Post
My memory of "Bloodlines" is a little rusty, but from what I can recall and gather from MA, the subspace transporter would solve the distance problem posed by STID but not the relative motion problem posed by ST09 (and described in BoBW). So that leads me to think that the "transwarp equation" might have incorporated aspects of the subspace transporter, but be fundamentally based on a post-2379 discovery.
Maybe. What a lot of people overlook is that the '09 movie used "transwarp" differently than it had been used before -- instead of using "trans-" in the sense of "beyond," as in a velocity faster than warp drive, it was using it in the sense of "across," as in across the warp barrier -- beaming from a (relatively) stationary location to a ship in warp drive. However, Into Darkness apparently forgot this, since it showed "transwarp" beaming being used to get from Earth to Kronos.
Yeah, your explanation of the name makes sense, but I never really cared for this new transporter tech being called "transwarp". The term's been used so many times in Trek, it just feels a bit uncreative at this point.

I just figured that transwarp beaming was the next generation of transporter technology, with multiple new capabilities, one of which was the "transwarp" capability you described.

I agree that transwarp beaming does seem to be dangerous and somewhat impractical from how it's been used thus far, but I'm not sure it is so to the degree that you're implying. In STID, no one seems to react to Harrison's use of the transwarp transporter as if it were incredibly dangerous to do so. No one says anything like, "Wow, he must be nuts." So I'm not sure it was the writers' intention for the technology's use in these circumstances to be quite so extraordinary.
Given how many different writers with different assumptions have written Trek over the decades, you can't possibly reconcile all the inconsistencies unless you're willing to interpret things differently from how the writers intended, or to squint a little at some of the script details. Heck, there are countless detail-level contradictions throughout the canon, so the only way to be able to buy into the pretense that it's a single coherent universe is if you're willing to be flexible about details and gloss over the occasional inconsistency.

Besides, it's simple enough to rationalize just by the fact that they had more important things preoccupying them at that moment, like the murder of several members of the admiralty. And given that Harrison had just committed a couple of extremely violent acts, it kind of went without saying that he was fanatical, determined, and possibly insane. Heck, he was taking a huge risk by attacking a Starfleet facility so brazenly in the first place. So the fact that he'd take the added risk of using an experimental transporter wouldn't really have warranted surprise at that point.
True. Very fair points.

Going back to the Khan's Blood discussion momentarily... having just seen the film again for the umpteeth time... I'm gonna be a strict constructionist here and say that we never actually had it confirmed that Kirk died. Whatever his state was, he was viable enough for McCoy to believe it possible to preserve his brain functions by putting him in cryostasis. And all McCoy says was that Kirk was "barely dead." That's actually a pretty low bar as Trek goes (Yareena, Bareil…). 23rd century medicine may have a stricter medical definition of death than 23rd century generalized definitions of death. So Kirk may have been dead in laymen's terms, but not medically.

Or maybe that's overthinking it.
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Old June 4 2013, 11:17 AM   #99
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Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

About the Transwarp beaming, I have no doubt that Starfleet would have detailed scans of Kronos' surface by 2259. Beyond that, all they'd need to know it's orbit and can beam away. The risk being if someone was standing where you plan to materialize or if they'd done some contstruction work since the last scans were made (no doubt partly why Harrison chose an uninhabited area as his destination)

And about Khan's blood and the technology of the 1970's, I am reminded of DTI: Watching the Clock's speculation that the Chrysalis Project may have had some assistance from the future.
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Old June 9 2013, 11:27 PM   #100
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Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

Christopher wrote: View Post
The problem there is metatextual: It would be offensive and unacceptable to cast a white actor to play a Sikh in and of itself. There's far too much of a tendency in Hollywood already to cast white actors in roles that should be played by Asians -- The Last Airbender and Cloud Atlas have both drawn controversy for their choices in that regard. If we're supposed to believe that this is Khan's unaltered face, then that's just more racially insensitive casting, and Star Trek should be better than that. Assuming he got plastic surgery doesn't do much to make the casting more acceptable, but at least it's something.

For what it's worth, I have a good friend who is white, of Welsh-celtic extraction, and is a practising Sikh. It could be considered offensive to assume that all Sikhs are Asian.
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Old June 10 2013, 01:08 AM   #101
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Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

^You're absolutely right -- I've since had that pointed out to me, about 3 weeks ago in post #28 of this very thread.
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Old June 10 2013, 10:08 AM   #102
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Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

Beyond the issue of religion, Roddenberry, etc. developed Khan as a character who was non-white. Now Abrams, etc. has made him white, with no explanation as of yet. I think at the least an explanation should've been given in the film.

As a person of color I was disappointed that they went that route. To be fair, they were looking at Benecio Del Toro (sp), but I wish they had looked at other non-white actors, particularly Indian actors. Granted this might have forced them to give up the ghost on Harrison's secret identity, which was a big deal for them, but still I think it would've been better than whitewashing the role.

At the end of the day it means, to me, that one less role (and in a major film) goes to a person of color and I don't think that's a good thing for Hollywood or audiences down the line.

Before people think I'm downing Abrams I do think he has been pretty good on the diversity front, compared to most in Hollywood. I like what he did with Alias and Undercovers.

In his Star Trek, Uhura has taken on an importance that she never had in the original series and within Star Trek period black female characters haven't gotten much attention or development at all (possible exceptions Lily Sloan and Kasidy Yates). All that being said, Uhura still is too much of Spock's girlfriend, but at least she gets more face time and is in the mix more than Nichelle Nichols was allowed to be (Nichelle is still my favorite Uhura though). At we got some short but sweet scenes with Sulu in both Trek '09 and Into Darkness. So, I think Abrams gets it to some extent and that's why the decision to whiten Khan is even more disappointing to me.
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Old June 10 2013, 04:09 PM   #103
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Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

Something else I remembered - Admiral Marcus tells Kirk that since first contact with the Klingons, they've conquered two planets that they know of. Those could be recent happenings, but it's possible one or both occurred prior to the timeline divergence, which may be relevant to the Rise of the Federation novels.
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Old June 10 2013, 04:47 PM   #104
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Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

DarKush wrote: View Post
Beyond the issue of religion, Roddenberry, etc. developed Khan as a character who was non-white. Now Abrams, etc. has made him white, with no explanation as of yet. I think at the least an explanation should've been given in the film.
Except that Nicholas Meyer made him white 31 years ago. In "Space Seed," Montalban was made up "brownface"-style, his complexion darkened to fit the South Asian ethnicity he was supposed to have. In TWOK, he had his normal, lighter complexion with no explanation. (Not to mention that Meyer turned the ethnically diverse supermen of "Space Seed" into a uniform bunch of blond Nordic types, and made them about two decades too young, given that they'd been stranded as adults 15 years earlier.)


As a person of color I was disappointed that they went that route.
My own color is sort of a light peach, but I was just as disappointed.


To be fair, they were looking at Benecio Del Toro (sp), but I wish they had looked at other non-white actors, particularly Indian actors.
In fact, Del Toro was one of four or five Latino actors they tested for the role. Cumberbatch is the only known actor they considered who wasn't Latino. Which does suggest that they genuinely wanted a Latin actor but ultimately went with the best performance and screen presence, which happened to be Cumberbatch.

Still, I agree, if it had been up to me I would've looked at South Asian actors first.


Granted this might have forced them to give up the ghost on Harrison's secret identity, which was a big deal for them, but still I think it would've been better than whitewashing the role.
It's not like they were at all successful at keeping the secret anyway -- particularly given that fans were speculating about Khan being in the sequel before the movie was even written.


At the end of the day it means, to me, that one less role (and in a major film) goes to a person of color and I don't think that's a good thing for Hollywood or audiences down the line.
I agree, it's unfortunate. Hopefully the next film will make up for it. I'd still love to see Lance Reddick as Kang, if they do a Klingon-centric story next time.


Before people think I'm downing Abrams I do think he has been pretty good on the diversity front, compared to most in Hollywood. I like what he did with Alias and Undercovers.
True. And Bad Robot seems to be doing pretty well on that front in the upcoming Almost Human too.


In his Star Trek, Uhura has taken on an importance that she never had in the original series and within Star Trek period black female characters haven't gotten much attention or development at all (possible exceptions Lily Sloan and Kasidy Yates). All that being said, Uhura still is too much of Spock's girlfriend, but at least she gets more face time and is in the mix more than Nichelle Nichols was allowed to be (Nichelle is still my favorite Uhura though).
I read an essay a while back arguing that having Uhura be Spock's girlfriend didn't really diminish her the way some have said:

Uhura being single in TOS was not empowering.

She was single because the male leads were all white and as a black woman she was less of a person than them, she was less of a person than a white woman, and the fact that this serendipitously ended up meaning that she didn't have to spend all of her time mooning pathetically after dismissive men does not make that any more acceptable.

She got to sit in the back and rarely do anything and have her sexuality ignored not because they respected her so much as a colleague and a person, but because she was not a full, real human being and when you're not a full, real human being the idea that actual people would ever desire you or romance you or love you is ridiculous. The idea that you might have any kind of sexuality at all, regardless of what it is, is irrelevant. You are invisible.
So the gist is that by showing Uhura as someone who's a capable, intelligent black career woman who's also acknowledged as someone worthy of being loved by and sexually involved with one of the film's heroes (and desired by the other) is an acknowledgment of her equality. And saying that a female character is diminished by being a love interest is a double standard, because Spock is her love interest too, and nobody says that diminishes him.


King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Something else I remembered - Admiral Marcus tells Kirk that since first contact with the Klingons, they've conquered two planets that they know of. Those could be recent happenings, but it's possible one or both occurred prior to the timeline divergence, which may be relevant to the Rise of the Federation novels.
Doubtful. The Romulan War novels established that the Klingons drew inward to deal with their internal crises (mainly the rise of the QuchHa' and the resultant racial strife), entering a period of consolidation rather than expansion. This is a handy way to reconcile ENT continuity with what TOS and TUC established about Federation-Klingon conflict only really dating back to the 2220s, about 70 years before TUC. Presumably they began a new expansionist phase around then and began clashing with the UFP.

Although conquering only two planets in the subsequent three-plus decades seems rather unambitious. That line of Marcus's struck me as rather odd -- particularly since it implied that the Klingons had only been recently contacted, even though the presence of models of the NX-Alpha and NX-01 on Marcus's desk in that very scene reinforced that ENT is part of the film's continuity. So I'm disinclined to take Marcus's line too literally.
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Old June 10 2013, 08:11 PM   #105
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Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

Christopher wrote: View Post
^You're absolutely right -- I've since had that pointed out to me, about 3 weeks ago in post #28 of this very thread.
I also have another friend who is Asian, is called Singh (I wont say last name as that's not really how it work with Sikhs), has the Sikh symbol tattooed on him and in his own words "thinks religion's a load of b****ks". I guess people are more unique than movie characters.
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