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Old June 7 2013, 05:22 AM   #16
Vulcan Logician
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

It has been reiterated many times throughout the Voyager series how Janeway could have got them back but didn't due to principle.
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Old June 7 2013, 05:52 AM   #17
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

R. Star wrote: View Post
The Federation let Cardassia rape Bajor when they could have intervened. They didn't even help the Bajorans when they were having an armed conflict with Cardassia at the same time of the Occupation because of the Prime Directive.
Right, because it was politically inconvenient for them to intervene. But if some rogue captain had intervened and freed Bajor they would have slapped that captain on the wrist.

The PD only really means 'Don't get involved in internal conflicts'. The rest of the time it's invoked to justify not doing stuff they don't want to do at the time.
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Old June 7 2013, 07:35 AM   #18
Anwar
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

The easiest way to resolve all this would've been to say that it was the Caretaker's natural power boosted by the Array that brought Voyager to the Array and once he died so did all chance of them getting home since the Array couldn't do it alone.


R. Star wrote: View Post
No.. if there were reinforcements close at hand Jabin would've continued attacking instead of just sending a message that "you have made an enemy today" and running off.
That just means he didn't have reinforcements that would be there immediately, not that he didn't have reinforcements that wouldn't get there within an hour or so (which still would be before they got the Array working).

The casualties occurred mainly because they were surprised and not ready for that sudden jolt.
Even so, there's still a risk someone would still die. And the Kazon Reinforcements arriving beforehand.

Your comment about people "wanting to blame Janeway for everything" seems just a testament to being closed minded and unwilling to consider other viewpoints.
Seeing how the sole alternative has been putting up with "It's all Janeways' fault!" for the last 18 years?

The Federation let Cardassia rape Bajor when they could have intervened.
Bajor was formally annexed by Cardassia, meaning the government at the time signed a treaty formally giving their world to the Cardassians. It was legally Cardassia's property and thus theirs to do with as they pleased. The Feds couldn't get involved and say it was an invasion because it was legal. The Bajoran Rebels might say it wasn't, but they're rebels.

Last edited by Anwar; June 7 2013 at 07:46 AM.
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Old June 7 2013, 08:20 AM   #19
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Bajor was formally annexed by Cardassia, meaning the government at the time signed a treaty formally giving their world to the Cardassians. It was legally Cardassia's property and thus theirs to do with as they pleased. The Feds couldn't get involved and say it was an invasion because it was legal. The Bajoran Rebels might say it wasn't, but they're rebels.
If Bajor had signed a treaty with Cardassi, we wouldn't be using the term Annexed. An Annexed terriroty usually implies a certain measure of coercion.

It would be like Country A invading smaller weaker country B, and saying we've decided to annex your territory and incoperate it into ours. Please sign this document to say you are ok with tis. And if you don't we'll just get someone who will.
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Old June 7 2013, 09:18 AM   #20
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

From State of Flux later in season 1.

PARIS: Captain, another Kazon ship is approaching, trying to hail the disabled ship. They're not within visual range yet.
TUVOK: Perhaps someone else picked up the distress call.
JANEWAY: What's their ETA?
PARIS: At their current speed, four hours twenty minutes. Should I tell them we're here?
So yeah.. Voyager's sensors are good enough to detect approaching ships coming in a good distance away. Given Tuvok didn't report any coming in, it's probably safe to assume it's because they weren't.
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Old June 7 2013, 09:25 AM   #21
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

Ocampa was a Kazon world.

The Ocampa were vermin it was the Kazon's job to put down.

Sometimes they trained this vermin to be slaves, but it really was a waste of time.

Imagine what would happen if one random Starfleet Captain told the Klingons or Romulans that they were not allowed to keep slaves, and that all their slaves were free on only that Captain's say so and moral fortitude?

Fleets would be sent to Earth to level the frakker until it looked like the 12th century.
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Old June 7 2013, 11:51 AM   #22
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

R. Star wrote: View Post
From State of Flux later in season 1.

PARIS: Captain, another Kazon ship is approaching, trying to hail the disabled ship. They're not within visual range yet.
TUVOK: Perhaps someone else picked up the distress call.
JANEWAY: What's their ETA?
PARIS: At their current speed, four hours twenty minutes. Should I tell them we're here?
So yeah.. Voyager's sensors are good enough to detect approaching ships coming in a good distance away. Given Tuvok didn't report any coming in, it's probably safe to assume it's because they weren't.
Ships sensors, long and short, detect warp bubbles, not actual tiny slithers of metal trillions of miles away.

Ocampa was a Kazon world.

If they can hold a world with one city ship and two shuttles, then the Ocampa deserved to be slaves.

Maybe they didn't have more city ships on Ocampa, but they had to have had dozens more or even hundreds more shuttles which were powered down and would look like a tin out door privy to long range sensors.

Kathryn was ignorant as to how intense Kazon saturation was in the area, and Neelix was ignorant as to how powerful Voyager was at full power. Voyager was no where near full power and I think in the season two Barclay episode that they said that Voyager was operating at %10 during the pilot.

Think about this...

Did they stop by the Ocampan city after the credits, so that Kes could say good bye to her family (again) and pick up some clean clothes, or did they RUN?
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Old June 7 2013, 12:13 PM   #23
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

The plot is very clear. They could not figure out how to operate the array before Kazon reinforcements arrive. Their only alternatives were to destroy the array, to deny the Kazon overwhelming immediate superiority (and the power to enslave the Ocampa,) or to make a deal with the Kazon. Sorry, but everyone who mentions a timer on a bomb is wrong. As this very episode demonstrated, timers can be disarmed.

Further, the whole point of Tuvok claiming that denying the Kazon salvage rights is a violation of the PD, is to establish that Janeway will bend the rules to do what she thinks is the right thing, no matter the cost. In a later episode she even planned to kamikaze Voyager to stop Torres' superbomb. It is not clear what the PD means, but what Tuvok says is a writers' shout out. It may be argued that violating some mysterious phrase like "prime directive," which doesn't have any meaning, is fake drama. If so, it's not unique to Voyager, much less Janeway.

Lastly, Anwar is quite correct that there is no reason to think the return trip would be any less murderous than the journey to the array. It was a self-contradiction in the episode's story premises. But it was clearly imposed so that Janeway would have to make a choice between return at the cost of Ocampan slavery, or a possible lifetime journey, whether short (i.e., catastrophic) or long.
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Old June 7 2013, 03:21 PM   #24
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
If Bajor had signed a treaty with Cardassi, we wouldn't be using the term Annexed. An Annexed terriroty usually implies a certain measure of coercion.

It would be like Country A invading smaller weaker country B, and saying we've decided to annex your territory and incoperate it into ours. Please sign this document to say you are ok with tis. And if you don't we'll just get someone who will.
Which still would mean that there was formal documentation signed that would be acceptable under Galactic Law that all the major powers recognize, and that the Feds couldn't just go in without violating said Laws and making all the other Empires out there (like the Klingons and Romulans) with conquered worlds nervous.
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Old June 7 2013, 09:53 PM   #25
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

In the case of Bajor it seems as if prior to the Cardassian invasion, it was a non-aligned world. If they had say a treaty with the UFP the Cardassians might not have invaded.
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Old June 9 2013, 12:01 AM   #26
Anwar
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
In the case of Bajor it seems as if prior to the Cardassian invasion, it was a non-aligned world. If they had say a treaty with the UFP the Cardassians might not have invaded.
Maybe, but it doesn't change that they probably had the government legitimize their occupation in a way that was acceptable via whatever intergalactic law everyone obeyed.
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Old June 9 2013, 12:26 AM   #27
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

In the novelverse the Cardassians never invaded Bajor per se. The recognized Bajoran government permitted everything that occurred (though the Cardassians did take numerous actions that the government was unaware of).

In a sense, the Bajoran citizenry is to blame for allowing corrupt officials to remain in power until it was too late to do anything about the situation.
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Old June 9 2013, 12:44 AM   #28
Guy Gardener
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

stj wrote: View Post
Lastly, Anwar is quite correct that there is no reason to think the return trip would be any less murderous than the journey to the array. It was a self-contradiction in the episode's story premises. But it was clearly imposed so that Janeway would have to make a choice between return at the cost of Ocampan slavery, or a possible lifetime journey, whether short (i.e., catastrophic) or long.
Never say that Anwar was right, you might as well be feeding Mogwai after midnight. Think about how the crew of the Val Jean and Voyager died. No one ran awry of strange radiation that turned them into frogs, and no was thrown against a bulk head at the speed of light with such concussive force that the crewman turned into gas.

Crew died because consoles that could have been powered down exploded in their faces, and crew died because they fell over at significantly less speeds than one would fall when falling off a merrygoround.

That's it.

With a 10 second countdown to a launch, after several hours warning as to when that ten second countdown would start, and the crew was seated and buckled down into crash positions, with all the explodly consols powered down, unless they were absolutely necessary, then everyone made sure that they did not have their their faces right up to any of those explody consols... No one had to die on the return trip.
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Old June 10 2013, 03:59 AM   #29
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

Cardassia was the legal owner of Bajor the same way Britain was the legal owner of India or France was the legal owner of Algeria or China is the legal owner of Tibet.

Legality is in the eye of the beholder. An occupation is legal when it would be politically disastrous for other countries to say it's not legal. Powerful countries give legal permission slips to other powerful countries to invade less powerful countries because they want to make nice with said powerful countries. It makes the occupation 'legal', but doesn't make it legitimate.
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Old June 10 2013, 05:20 AM   #30
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

Britain didn't "legitimately" hold India for a couple centuries?

Might equals right.

The Ocampa were underground having abandoned the dead surface.

Caretaker was in the sky with enough weapons to exterminate the kazon, but he didn't.

Here's the real pickle to question the legitimacy of claiming a dead world with no noticeable civilization whatsofuckering ever...

(Parched red clay, cracked under the red sky. Janeway, Paris, Chakotay, Tuvok and Neelix beam down. People run to a building nearby.)
PARIS: Why would anyone want to live in a place like this?
NEELIX: The rich cormaline deposits are very much in demand.
CHAKOTAY: The Ocampa use it for barter?
NEELIX: Not the Ocampa, the Kazon-Ogla.
JANEWAY: The Kazon-Ogla? Who are the Kazon-Ogla?
NEELIX: They are. Kazon sects control this part of the quadrant. Some have food, some have ore, some have water. They all trade and they all kill each other for it.
They have a cormaline mine and a cormaline refinery and a cormaline shop which everyone in the quadrant uses.

As legitimate as "blood diamonds"?

Don't be an ass.

The Ocampa had no interest in the surface of their planet or space.

Pets in a kennel.
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