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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old June 7 2013, 11:20 PM   #61
Use of Time
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Gary7 wrote: View Post
Riker wrote:
"You don't inspire these people to go out of their way for you, and you've got everyone wound so tight that there's no joy in anything."
What I would have said is something more like this: "Sir, I fully appreciate the urgency of the situation at hand and that there's no time to build a relationship with the crew right now, but you'll get a lot more out of them if they feel like you care. Drive them hard, but also give them some breathing room in return."

Jellico was pushing hard relentlessly. He had to wait for Deanna to let him know how the crew feels. And rather than collaborating with Deanna on what to do about it, he just shoves the whole "morale boost" project onto her shoulders. "Get it done."

There is a difference between being firm and being callous. I just finished watching this episode again and there's a nuance to Jellico's personality. He doesn't make much effort at all to smooth things out. He's firm, coarse, and unforgiving. No, he doesn't need to mimic Picard to get the crew to work for him. But all he needed to do was just be a little less abrasive. That's what I see.
But thats just a leadership preference not the definition of a good or bad Captain or a good or bad leader. If Riker had told me there is no joy in anything then I probably would have told him that I would be happy to share the crews joy when Crusher and Picard return safely and war with the Cardassians had been averted.

I don't have any problem with what you said when you paraphrased what you would have told Jellico but I would have had a problem with you continuing to undermine him at every turn after your advice had been rejected.
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Old June 8 2013, 02:55 AM   #62
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

^ It's the difference between a captain who has a crew with high morale or high duress.
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Old June 8 2013, 04:05 AM   #63
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

The mission itself makes it high duress. The bottom line is that Riker did absolutely nothing to help the situation. He set a poor example for the rest of the senior staff and made a tense situation worse.
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Old June 8 2013, 06:00 AM   #64
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Yes, it's pretty much agreed upon that Riker let everyone down (including us); but Jellico didn't take a tactic of helping and instead had a punitive air about him. Of the two I still feel that Riker was the bad example, but I believe Jellico had room to handle it better. Picard certainly would have.
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Old June 9 2013, 06:57 AM   #65
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Tiberius wrote: View Post
The Enterprise faced the Borg with three shifts, and that seemed to go just fine. Why then would three shifts be so bad against the Cardassians?
Actually, it didn't go all that fine with the Borg. Everybody would have died if not for Data, & Guinan actually had to show up & coax Riker into getting out of his usual funk, but I'm getting off the point, which is...
Tiberius wrote: View Post
And if it's a more serious threat, then you'd want to keep your crew in a state where they can perform their duties properly, instead of introducing fatigue caused by loss of sleep as they try to adjust their sleeping schedules to have the right number of duty shifts.
Tiberius wrote: View Post
I'm a shift worker, so I've done it myself and I know exactly what it is like.
I work shifts too, & what you seem to not realize is that Jellico ordered an additional shift to be put in place, which would equate to being shorter shifts by a quarter, with longer sleeping hours, and Riker's issue was that it would cause "Significant" personnel shortages on each shift. This equates to there being less staff & more work to do on each given shift, which can to some degree be compensated for by spreading workload over to the new shift. Restructuring was what he was having them do mostly, & shorter shifts would certainly not fatigue people to a degree that would cause risk to the mission. They just didn't enjoy the prospect of being short handed on these shifts... Tough luck.

And frankly, I'm not going to continue to defend the captain's orders. Unless they can make a claim that his orders are such that he could be considered an unfit captain, then his orders do not need to be defended or even explained really. That is the privileged of rank. No one challenged his authority such that it was said he should be relieved of command... So get your objection noted, & then shut up & do the job he orders you to do
Tiberius wrote: View Post
Mojochi wrote: View Post
It was stated that Jellico was given the ship "Enterprise" because the name carries weight, not because of the crew's methods, which Jellico made clear were in need of change for the mission right from the get go. He was the captain for the mission. The ship was the name they wanted there, and the crew would need to adjust accordingly. That was the directive handed down from HQ.
I don't get what you are saying here. If the important thing was that it was the Enterprise, why the need to change the way they do things? Surely the name Enterprise carries the same weight either way?
What I'm saying is that the name "Enterprise" & the man they wanted over the mission, Jellico, were the only key factors that Starfleet were considering important. It was a new paradigm, "Jellico's Enterprise". The crew's design was not a factor in what they needed for the mission, & in order to achieve the mission, It's new captain had new expectations. Since they were Starfleet's finest, then they can be expected to be capable of adjusting to a new paradigm, which was certainly understood by Jellico & Starfleet before the mission got underway. It's analogous to buying a company for it's brand name with lesser interest in the actual company design, & then hiring a new CEO to get something new from it, & in doing so he must make unpleasant changes
Tiberius wrote: View Post
Mojochi wrote: View Post
Ultimately, it is the duty of subordinate officers to assume the captain's orders have a reason, unless they have evidence to suggest he is an unfit captain, in which case, Riker should have assumed command
And it is also the duty of every captain to ensure he is acting in the best interests of the ship, the crew and the mission.
The mission was a success, the ship & crew went completely unharmed, aside from some bruised egos. He even managed, with his crew, to overcome the obstacle of Picard's mission being a trap & save its team members, AND every order he gave went completely unmentioned afterward, once it was executed, which means all negative outcomes from his orders were either negligible or nonexistent. What more can you ask? He didn't say "Pretty please, with sugar on top"?
Tiberius wrote: View Post
Mojochi wrote: View Post
Besides, the ever so frequented point about Jellico ignoring his subordinates' suggestions & opinions is just plain wrong. Riker would never have left his quarters if that were the case. It was the advice of Geordi that influenced Jellico to proposition Riker for the piloting mission in the 1st place. He considered that suggestion and followed through on it, an effort that required him to swallow his pride, go back on his executive decision to relieve Riker, and even drop ranks so he could personally ask Riker to take the mission, outside the chain of command. He did all that for the mission, on top of accepting a nearly impossible assignment to begin with
Irrelevant. The fact that jellico followed Geordie's suggestion in one instance does not mean that he never ignored his subordinate's opinions.
Because he finds himself in the position of having to reject his subordinates' suggestions does not mean he ignores his subordinates. The fact that Jellico uses Geordi's suggestion, which was the most inconvenient to him personally, should be the only evidence you need. When his officers offer suggestion which are useful, he makes use of them. He also accepted Data's suggestion of how to implement the orders Geordi had issues with. Being captain means sometimes saying no. Being the unlikable new captain telling people to do things they'd rather not do is going to be tough. Having to waste time pussyfooting around them gingerly makes it take longer to accomplish, & undermines his authority in the process

Admiral_Sisko wrote:
People are much more willing to bend over backwards for someone they've had a longterm working relationship with. LaForge had been serving with Picard for more than two years at the time "Ensigns of Command" originally aired. Riker says as much during his confrontation with Jelico: "You don't inspire these people to go out of their way for you, and you've got everyone wound so tight that there's no joy in anything."
You said yourself Picard had 2 years to inspire people, in peace time no less. Jellico had a few days. He just had to expect them to go all out. They're Starfleet, they're Enterprise, they're supposedly the finest crew in the fleet. They OWE that much. Jellico would have to have known in advance that being an unknown new captain having to make unpleasant changes & push high expectations & demanding challenges with his crew would make him unpopular. His choice, & I can't really dispute the logic, was to play the role he was left with, instead of trying to negotiate his way around it. After all, the guy with the 4 pips deserves obedience, whether you like him or not, whether you think it's fair or not, whether you even think it's correct. You don't get that choice. That's what being an officer is. If Riker doesn't like that, he needed to grab one of those ships he was offered, so HE'D be the guy everyone has to obey
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Old June 9 2013, 07:45 AM   #66
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

^ One thing we're all overlooking at this point: there wasn't really a need for a 4 shift rotation, was there? In the conflict with the Borg, the writers never even brought it up. You'd just assume that in any dire situation, people would be pulled from off-duty or slumber to jump in and help for as long as they were needed.

With Jellico's diplomatic mission, there wasn't an enormous burden placed over the entire crew. It was mostly engineering, with Geordi taking the brunt of it. They had to investigate and figure out what the Cardassians were up to, burning the candle at both ends if they had to. I don't think we are ever shown a specific situation where other crew members are hard at work, exhausted, then followed on by another shift.

So why institute this shift rotation? It was a plot device, to show Jellico nudging up the stress level on the crew by taking them out of their comfort zone. Without a good hard case to show WHY Jellico instituted this 4 duty shift rotation, it kind of falls flat.
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Old June 9 2013, 08:00 AM   #67
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Mojochi wrote: View Post
Tiberius wrote: View Post
The Enterprise faced the Borg with three shifts, and that seemed to go just fine. Why then would three shifts be so bad against the Cardassians?
Actually, it didn't go all that fine with the Borg. Everybody would have died if not for Data, & Guinan actually had to show up & coax Riker into getting out of his usual funk, but I'm getting off the point, which is...
Actually, my point was that if having four shifts instead of three lead to any increase in crew performance when faced with dangerous situations, then Picard would have implemented it ages ago. But they faced the Borg with three. If four was so much better, why didn't Picard implement it then? Answer: because it isn't, and Jellico only wanted to make the switch to four because it was his personal preference. And pandering to your personal preference when it will disrupt the crew shortly before they go into a dangerous situation is a stupid idea.

Tiberius wrote: View Post
And if it's a more serious threat, then you'd want to keep your crew in a state where they can perform their duties properly, instead of introducing fatigue caused by loss of sleep as they try to adjust their sleeping schedules to have the right number of duty shifts.
I work shifts too, & what you seem to not realize is that Jellico ordered an additional shift to be put in place, which would equate to being shorter shifts by a quarter, with longer sleeping hours, and Riker's issue was that it would cause "Significant" personnel shortages on each shift. This equates to there being less staff & more work to do on each given shift, which can to some degree be compensated for by spreading workload over to the new shift. Restructuring was what he was having them do mostly, & shorter shifts would certainly not fatigue people to a degree that would cause risk to the mission. They just didn't enjoy the prospect of being short handed on these shifts... Tough luck.
And you'll still have people needing to get up earlier or later than they were used to, which will create fatigue.

Assume that the three shifts are 6am-2pm, 2pm-10pm and 10pm-6am. Switch to four shifts and it's 6am-12pm, 12pm-6pm, 6pm-12am and 12am-6am. One of those shifts is starting a full four hours earlier. If you were starting at 2pm, now you've got to be ready 2 hours earlier. So for a start, you;ve got people adjusting their sleeping clocks. If they had a week or so before their confrontation with the Cardies, then it would be fine. But they don't. These people will be adjusting their body clocks at the worst possible time.

Add to that the fact that the crew will still be getting used to personnel restructuring during the added shift. Again, if they had a week or so to get used to it, then it is good.

Now, I'm not saying that a four shift rotation is bad. I'd probably do it myself if I was captain. But I certainly would not be messing around with a routine that the crew is used to and works comfortably with on the eve of a potentially dangerous situation.

And frankly, I'm not going to continue to defend the captain's orders. Unless they can make a claim that his orders are such that he could be considered an unfit captain, then his orders do not need to be defended or even explained really. That is the privileged of rank. No one challenged his authority such that it was said he should be relieved of command... So get your objection noted, & then shut up & do the job he orders you to do
I never said he should be relieved of command over this. I just said that he picked a lousy time to mess with the crew's roster.

What I'm saying is that the name "Enterprise" & the man they wanted over the mission, Jellico, were the only key factors that Starfleet were considering important. It was a new paradigm, "Jellico's Enterprise". The crew's design was not a factor in what they needed for the mission, & in order to achieve the mission, It's new captain had new expectations. Since they were Starfleet's finest, then they can be expected to be capable of adjusting to a new paradigm, which was certainly understood by Jellico & Starfleet before the mission got underway. It's analogous to buying a company for it's brand name with lesser interest in the actual company design, & then hiring a new CEO to get something new from it, & in doing so he must make unpleasant changes
The change to four shifts was not a change that MUST have been made, as you imply.

And I;d argue that the performance of the crew was part of what made the name "Enterprise" so formidable.

The mission was a success, the ship & crew went completely unharmed, aside from some bruised egos. He even managed, with his crew, to overcome the obstacle of Picard's mission being a trap & save its team members, AND every order he gave went completely unmentioned afterward, once it was executed, which means all negative outcomes from his orders were either negligible or nonexistent. What more can you ask? He didn't say "Pretty please, with sugar on top"?
I think you misunderstand me. The only order I take issue with was the change to the crew rosters. Other than that, Jellico did a fine job. A bit abrupt, perhaps, but I agree that he did get the job done.

All I have ever been saying is that the changes he made to the crew created fatiague and added a significant problem that the crew really didn't need at that time. When you're going into a confrontation with a bunch of Cardassian warships, I'm sure the department heads have better things to worry about that sorting out new shifts.

Tiberius wrote: View Post
Irrelevant. The fact that jellico followed Geordie's suggestion in one instance does not mean that he never ignored his subordinate's opinions.
Because he finds himself in the position of having to reject his subordinates' suggestions does not mean he ignores his subordinates. The fact that Jellico uses Geordi's suggestion, which was the most inconvenient to him personally, should be the only evidence you need. When his officers offer suggestion which are useful, he makes use of them. He also accepted Data's suggestion of how to implement the orders Geordi had issues with. Being captain means sometimes saying no. Being the unlikable new captain telling people to do things they'd rather not do is going to be tough. Having to waste time pussyfooting around them gingerly makes it take longer to accomplish, & undermines his authority in the process
And both of the examples you mentioned are irrelevant to the fact that Jellico ordered four shifts, which caused significant problems for the crew while providing no advantage whatsoever. Choosing Riker to fly the shuttle had significant advantages.
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Old June 9 2013, 05:18 PM   #68
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Gary7 wrote:
They had to investigate and figure out what the Cardassians were up to, burning the candle at both ends if they had to.
And prepare for the strong likelihood that the Cardassians were planning to move on the Federation Militarily, & the Enterprise would be alone at the epicenter when it all went to shit.

Jellico: Jean-Luc... let's be candid for a moment. The Cardassians aren't going to listen to reason, and the Federation won't give in to their demands. And the odds are, you won't be coming back from this mission of yours. I want this ship ready for action. I don't have time to give Wil Riker or anyone else a "chance."

The majority of the changes he put in place were for the very likely event that the diplomatic & investigative efforts would fail
Tiberius wrote: View Post
Actually, my point was that if having four shifts instead of three lead to any increase in crew performance when faced with dangerous situations, then Picard would have implemented it ages ago.

...because it isn't, and Jellico only wanted to make the switch to four because it was his personal preference.
You don't know with certainty the former, & you have no proof of the latter. Perhaps Picard did at times, & perhaps this was a protocol that is commonplace & Jellico, possibly along with Starfleet, considered it a useful part of the mission. There's no info to suggest otherwise

As I've stated, the captain's orders are assumed to have a legitimate reason
Tiberius wrote: View Post
And you'll still have people needing to get up earlier or later than they were used to, which will create fatigue.
In the majority of the restaffing most people would be sent to bed earlier, & likely given some kind of friendly 24th century sleep assist by the medical staff

Plus, If fatigue were the most concerning issue, why was it not mentioned specifically by Riker, or anyone else, & if the order were so unreasonable, why didn't Picard say something in private right then, once Riker had left? Ultimately, it's because the concern was negligible

They didn't like or approve of the directive. Jellico told them to do it anyway, and it was never mentioned again after having been done. There were no significant repercussions of that directive ever brought to light, stating that it had an overwhelmingly negative impact on the mission or crew. Unpleasant? Yes. Add it to the list of unpleasantness this mission created. Bad captaining? No. No evidence to suggest that here
Tiberius wrote: View Post
I never said he should be relieved of command over this. I just said that he picked a lousy time to mess with the crew's roster.
& maybe it was all part of the Starfleet approved mission specs before he even beamed aboard.
Tiberius wrote: View Post
The change to four shifts was not a change that MUST have been made, as you imply.
You don't know that, & all I'm saying is that the change did not necessarily have to be of a personal preference nature, & I won't defend his order beyond stating that
Tiberius wrote: View Post
And I'd argue that the performance of the crew was part of what made the name "Enterprise" so formidable.
The "Enterprise" brand name was galactically formidable a century before they got posted there, for being present in situations just like this one.
Tiberius wrote: View Post
I think you misunderstand me. The only order I take issue with was the change to the crew rosters. Other than that, Jellico did a fine job. A bit abrupt, perhaps, but I agree that he did get the job done.
One directive, that you cannot say was a specifically personal one, & which had no lasting repercussions beyond the crew being unhappy with it & displeased with their captain, which they were likely to be in the first place, & was probably noted in the mission layout beforehand as well

People are really calling this guy a poor captain because of one order & being curt? The man never even gets an onscreen thank you for saving Picard's life, Which was what got Riker relieved to begin with. It's not like Riker was doing anything useful to save him
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Old June 10 2013, 12:04 AM   #69
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Mojochi wrote: View Post
Tiberius wrote: View Post
Actually, my point was that if having four shifts instead of three lead to any increase in crew performance when faced with dangerous situations, then Picard would have implemented it ages ago.

...because it isn't, and Jellico only wanted to make the switch to four because it was his personal preference.
You don't know with certainty the former, & you have no proof of the latter. Perhaps Picard did at times, & perhaps this was a protocol that is commonplace & Jellico, possibly along with Starfleet, considered it a useful part of the mission. There's no info to suggest otherwise

As I've stated, the captain's orders are assumed to have a legitimate reason
Are you kidding?

If Picard used to have his crew switch over to four shifts during crises, then the crew would have a proven method to quickly and efficiently make the change, and no one would be complaining about how difficult it is to reorganize the crew duty rosters.

And as for there being no evidence that it was just Jellico's preference? Well, I can't think of anything else it could be. But if you can think of anything more plausible, I'll accept it.

In the majority of the restaffing most people would be sent to bed earlier, & likely given some kind of friendly 24th century sleep assist by the medical staff
Lovely. Going into a confrontation with a fleet of Cardassian battle cruisers? Let's make sure your crew is doped up on sleeping tablets!

Oh, and how do you think Beverly's going to react to this? The Enterprise has about 1000 people on board. Some are civilians and children, so let's assume 800 actual crew. And let's say that between half and three quarters are going to be getting up earlier. That's 400-600 people who are going to be bugging Beverly for sleeping pills. Do you think she's going to be happy about that? Handing them out like they're candy?

Plus, If fatigue were the most concerning issue, why was it not mentioned specifically by Riker, or anyone else, & if the order were so unreasonable, why didn't Picard say something in private right then, once Riker had left? Ultimately, it's because the concern was negligible
Ah yes, the old, "If it wasn't mentioned, then it doesn't exist" argument.

They didn't like or approve of the directive. Jellico told them to do it anyway, and it was never mentioned again after having been done. There were no significant repercussions of that directive ever brought to light, stating that it had an overwhelmingly negative impact on the mission or crew. Unpleasant? Yes. Add it to the list of unpleasantness this mission created. Bad captaining? No. No evidence to suggest that here
And of course, we were shown ample shots of the crew in the Jefferies Tubes to see if they were yawning constantly...

& maybe it was all part of the Starfleet approved mission specs before he even beamed aboard.
In which case the crew would have known ahead of time, and they would have already started work on changing it. But since they didn't know until Ed gave the order, I'm going to say no to this.

You don't know that, & all I'm saying is that the change did not necessarily have to be of a personal preference nature, & I won't defend his order beyond stating that
Give me another plausible answer to the question of why Jellico wanted four shifts then.

Tiberius wrote: View Post
And I'd argue that the performance of the crew was part of what made the name "Enterprise" so formidable.
The "Enterprise" brand name was galactically formidable a century before they got posted there, for being present in situations just like this one.
For a start, I don't see how that's relevant. The Cardassians aren't going to think the Enterprise D is formidable just because they've heard that Kirk's a skilled warrior.

Secondly, the crew is a requirement for the reputation of a ship. If you have the Enterprise and the Lollypop, two ships with identical specs but the Enterprise is known as a formidible ship and the Lollypop is laughable, and then you swap crews, would you find the Enterprise crewed by the people from the Lollypop to be particular threatening?

Tiberius wrote: View Post
I think you misunderstand me. The only order I take issue with was the change to the crew rosters. Other than that, Jellico did a fine job. A bit abrupt, perhaps, but I agree that he did get the job done.
One directive, that you cannot say was a specifically personal one, & which had no lasting repercussions beyond the crew being unhappy with it & displeased with their captain, which they were likely to be in the first place, & was probably noted in the mission layout beforehand as well
Yes, it is mostly this one order I have issues with. Personal? No, but then I never said it was a personal issue. Lasting ramifications beyond the crew being unhappy? There were several potentially dangerous ramifications, including fatigue and a crew doped up on sleeping pills. Noted in the mission layout? Doubtful. As I said earlier, if it was, why did Riker not know about it until Jellico ordered it? Or does starfleet routinely keep its officers ignorant of such things?

People are really calling this guy a poor captain because of one order & being curt? The man never even gets an onscreen thank you for saving Picard's life, Which was what got Riker relieved to begin with. It's not like Riker was doing anything useful to save him[/QUOTE]
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Old June 10 2013, 12:54 AM   #70
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Remember, we don't have very much information to go on, but for the dialog given to us in this episode. Nowhere else do we ever hear about a 3 or 4 shift rotation in TNG. So it's an unexplored aspect that can only be left up to speculation.

We'll never know if Jellico instituted this 4 shift rotation because he had experience in it being more effective during combat situations, or if he was just exercising his "remaking" of the crew, putting his thumbprint on it ("We're doing it my way.").

And remember, he didn't really care about whether or not people got enough sleep.
JELLICO: We're not on a research mission. Get it done in two days.
DATA: I believe that is also an attainable goal. If we utilize the entire Engineering department, there should be sufficient manpower available to complete the task.
LAFORGE: Sure, if everybody works around the clock for the next two days.
JELLICO: Then you'd better get to it, Geordi. It looks like you have some work to do. Data.

So much for the 4 shift rotation. EVERYBODY works around the clock on this one. For two straight days.


RIKER: There is no delta shift yet, sir. I have spoken to the department heads about changing from three shifts to four, and they assure me it's going to cause us significant personnel problems.
JELLICO: So you have not changed the watch rotation.
RIKER: I was going to explain this to you after the ceremony, sir.
JELLICO: You will tell the department heads that as of now the Enterprise is on a four shift rotation. I don't want to talk about it. Get it done. Now that means delta shift will be due to come on duty in two hours. I expect you to have it fully manned and ready when it does. Is that clear?

"Significant personnel problems." But Jellico ignores this. "OK sir, here's your 4 shift rotation, however it's not fully manned because we don't have enough people with the right skills in order to adequately fill it in. You'll have performance issues, but you'll have your 4 shifts... SIR." Yet Jellico was such a stickler for the warp core being a few percentage points more efficient. Anyway, we don't get enough detail here... we don't know if Jellico is being unreasonable or the department heads are being lazy.


LAFORGE: Commander, he's asked me to completely reroute half the power systems on the ship, change every duty roster, realign the warp coils in two days, and now he's transferred a third of my department to Security.*
RIKER: If it makes you feel any better, you're not alone. Captain Jellico has made major changes in every department on the ship.*
LAFORGE: Yeah, well, I don't mind making changes and I don't mind hard work, but the man isn't giving me the time I need to do the work. Someone's got to get him to listen to reason.*
RIKER: It's not going to be me. He's made that abundantly clear.*
LAFORGE: Well then, can I make a suggestion? Talk to Captain Picard. Maybe he can do something. We just need a little time.*
RIKER: All right.

Geordi isn't being given enough time to get things done. He's no novice--he's a seasoned veteran engineer, who has many hours logged as chief engineer. He knows the score. If he forces things to get done sooner, it means skipping checks and quality goes down, which then allows for greater risk of failure during critical moments. You can't be perfect but you need to be within tolerance. And Jellico was demanding precision above the specs.

It all comes down to one main thing: Is Jellico making a reasonable request and is the crew capable of pulling it off? The sign of a good captain is being able to see the middle ground. Realize that you may not have "all the data" and a demand you make could come back as unable to be fulfilled. You can't have imaginary people staff stations if there's insufficient people to man them. "It's not my problem, commander." Well, it will be if you give your commander a no-win scenario.


For me, I feel it was really just a plot device to give Riker cause to be resistant to Jellico, as under Picard's command they operated on a 3 shift rotation. Riker was more about keeping things as familiar to him as possible, rather than giving Jellico the latitude to make changes. And as it turned out, this was not the way to go for Riker.

And then we have to pull back and remember that we can't all be an A+ student every day. Sometimes we slip up and fail. Riker had a C- day with Jellico. He obviously didn't continue as such when Picard was back in command. And the "future" Riker we learn about in "All Good Things" was sharp enough to eventually inherit command of the Enterprise after all.
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Old June 10 2013, 01:58 AM   #71
Mojochi
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Tiberius wrote: View Post
And as for there being no evidence that it was just Jellico's preference? Well, I can't think of anything else it could be. But if you can think of anything more plausible, I'll accept it.
The captain's orders are assumed to have a legitimate reason, unless he is unfit. That you can't imagine what those might be is not my problem to sort out for you. That you don't know what his reasons are is no grounds to call him a poor captain who is being unduly hard on his crew, for personal preference. In every instance, he has shown to be concerned only with the mission success. It is irrational for you to suggest that one order you object to nullifies his entire presence otherwise, when you don't have all the information.
Tiberius wrote: View Post
Ah yes, the old, "If it wasn't mentioned, then it doesn't exist" argument.
If it wasn't mentioned during his complaint, then at the very least, you're making an entirely baseless argument,

If we were talking about toilets, then yeah, I could assume them existing without being mentioned, but we're talking about an effect on the crew you've attributed that was never even spoken about, & using it to adamantly suggest he shouldn't be giving the order. You don't know
Tiberius wrote: View Post
In which case the crew would have known ahead of time, and they would have already started work on changing it. But since they didn't know until Ed gave the order, I'm going to say no to this.
They didn't even know the man was showing up until that day. Stands to reason he might have new orders & mission specs that they are unaware of
Tiberius wrote: View Post
For a start, I don't see how that's relevant. The Cardassians aren't going to think the Enterprise D is formidable just because they've heard that Kirk's a skilled warrior.
The Enterprise name is so legendary, that it's their flagship now. I'm just telling you what the admiral lady said.

"We're hoping that the presence of the Federation flagship on the border will send a message to their leadership about how seriously we view this situation."

Flagship + Jellico = mission. Nowhere in that equation is the crew's way of doing things
Tiberius wrote: View Post
Lasting ramifications beyond the crew being unhappy? There were several potentially dangerous ramifications, including fatigue and a crew doped up on sleeping pills.
You realize they don't use dope right? It's the 24th century. They've got new fancy medicines that don't dope the crew up. Sleeping hypos with no side effects get handed out all the time. This is why I'm not entertaining the notion of offering more hypotheticals for you. You disregard common Star Trek knowledge to further your argument at any cost
Tiberius wrote: View Post
Yes, it is mostly this one order I have issues with. Personal? No, but then I never said it was a personal issue.
Tiberius wrote:
Jellico only wanted to make the switch to four because it was his personal preference.
You did though. You're saying he is making changes for personal preference reasons, & I'm saying it's entirely possible it's all mission related, & you got no ground to suggest otherwise, because you don't know his mission, & it's not my job to invent it for you. He's the captain. The mission was a success on all levels, with no damage to ship or crew being reported. Not a bad captain giving bad orders. End of story.

Gary7 wrote:
The sign of a good captain is being able to see the middle ground. Realize that you may not have "all the data" and a demand you make could come back as unable to be fulfilled.
He knew where his room was. He knew the ships system designs. He knew what class Riker was in. He knew what ship Geordi served on. He even knew about Picard's mission, & his own mission was a success. I'd say it's reasonable to suggest he knew what he needed to know, & had anticipated the difficulties in carrying out the orders he gave
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Old June 10 2013, 02:07 AM   #72
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

And finally, there's this:

JELLICO: Let's drop the ranks for a moment. I don't like you. I think you're insubordinate, arrogant, willful, and I don't think you're a particularly good first officer. But you are also the best pilot on the ship.

RIKER: Well, now that the ranks are dropped, Captain, I don't like you, either. You are arrogant and closed-minded. You need to control everything and everyone. You don't provide an atmosphere of trust, and you don't inspire these people to go out of their way for you. You've get everybody wound up so tight there's no joy in anything. I don't think you're a particularly good Captain.


So Jellico claims that Riker is:
* Insubordinate -- he didn't institute Jellico's shift change immediately.
* Arrogant/willful -- he was determined for Jellico to have Picard declared a prisoner of war and for there to be a rescue mission, despite Jellico's orders to the contrary
* Not a good first officer -- this is only an assessment of the two previous points

And Riker claims that Jellico is:
* Arrogant -- he gives orders and allows no room for discussion or debate
* Close-minded -- he doesn't solicit opinions or consider unsolicited opinions have any merit
* Controls everything -- certain things, yes. Jellico hand picks specific things that he'll micro manage.
* No atmosphere of trust -- Jellico does tend to operate clandestine, without informing his closest officers as to what his real intentions are
* No inspiration -- he doesn't care what people think; he only wants them to blindly follow orders
* Everybody wound up tight -- this is only an assessment of the previous points
* Not a particularly good captain -- again, assessing the combination of factors above


A difference of management styles? Obviously. Does Jellico try to "set the stage" for his new command with his senior officers? Does he call for a senior staff meeting immediately after assuming command? No. He doesn't have any time for a "honeymoon" with the crew. Yet...

I believe he could have started off with this:

Jellico (alt) wrote:
"I very much realize how well Captain Picard is liked by the crew of the Enterprise and so his leaving is not what people would have wanted. And my taking his place is not what people would have wanted. I can appreciate that, and I imagine the same situation is true of the crew aboard the Cairo.

Unfortunately we are in a very tenuous situation right now and Captain Picard has been called away to fulfill a different mission. Mine is to get the Enterprise battle ready to deal with the looming Cardassian threat. This does not give me very much time to shake people's hands individually and get to know the crew. We need to set aside that phase and jump directly into a full productivity mode. You need to look upon me as if I've always been the captain. Starfleet wouldn't have appointed me as captain of the Enterprise if they thought I didn't have it in me. I have quite a lot of experience and even more than Picard in terms of dealing with the Cardassians.

So, I need to be brief. I will be making demands of you, enacting orders that may cause you to work in unfamiliar ways. It is all for a good reason, I can assure you. When I give an order, I don't welcome a debate, not unless there is a critical factor you recognize as having been overlooked. Above and beyond all else, we need to get things done and quickly. Your captain was known for the phrase 'make it so.' Mine is 'get it done.' If we all fall in line and accomplish what we set out to do, things will work out for the best and hopefully in the end we'll be able to rejoice with a positive outcome in our favor with the Cardassians.

That is all. Dismissed."
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Old June 10 2013, 02:23 AM   #73
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

^ We don't even know that all the things which Riker accuses Jellico of are true in any other situation than this one. On the Cairo he may be able to work entirely differently. This mission presented difficulties even for him, & his solution might have been to just play the part he was inevitably going to be dealt, being the new jerk no one agrees with. As for Jellico's accusations. Riker has often been both arrogant & impulsive, & though his insubordination is pretty rare, it was present in this situation, in not just failing to follow an order, but in speaking out about his dissatisfaction with subordinates, his general attitude with the captain, & finally his act of defiance

Though I do appreciate the sentiment of your diffusing speech. A lot of it is overkill. Frankly, I might have only said this

"In this critical situation, there will be demands placed on all of us that will not be fully appreciated by anyone but ourselves. I do regret that it might be a strain our relationships, but commend you in advance for offering the best you can give. There can be no less for us to succeed"
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Old June 10 2013, 03:13 AM   #74
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Mojochi wrote: View Post
Tiberius wrote: View Post
And as for there being no evidence that it was just Jellico's preference? Well, I can't think of anything else it could be. But if you can think of anything more plausible, I'll accept it.
The captain's orders are assumed to have a legitimate reason, unless he is unfit. That you can't imagine what those might be is not my problem to sort out for you. That you don't know what his reasons are is no grounds to call him a poor captain who is being unduly hard on his crew, for personal preference. In every instance, he has shown to be concerned only with the mission success. It is irrational for you to suggest that one order you object to nullifies his entire presence otherwise, when you don't have all the information.
Oh, get off your high horse. Where did I say that jellico didn't deserve to be captain? My argument is that demanding the crew switch to a four shift rotation is unecessary and a stupid idea.

Tiberius wrote: View Post
Ah yes, the old, "If it wasn't mentioned, then it doesn't exist" argument.
If it wasn't mentioned during his complaint, then at the very least, you're making an entirely baseless argument,

If we were talking about toilets, then yeah, I could assume them existing without being mentioned, but we're talking about an effect on the crew you've attributed that was never even spoken about, & using it to adamantly suggest he shouldn't be giving the order. You don't know They didn't even know the man was showing up until that day. Stands to reason he might have new orders & mission specs that they are unaware of The Enterprise name is so legendary, that it's their flagship now. I'm just telling you what the admiral lady said.

"We're hoping that the presence of the Federation flagship on the border will send a message to their leadership about how seriously we view this situation."

Flagship + Jellico = mission. Nowhere in that equation is the crew's way of doing things
We know that switching to a four shift rotation is going to cause a lot of problems because Riker says it will.

And as I said before, having four shifts is not required to carry out the mission. So why does Jellico want it? He gives no rationale for his request, no justification. So why shouldn't it be interpreted as personal preference?

You realize they don't use dope right? It's the 24th century. They've got new fancy medicines that don't dope the crew up. Sleeping hypos with no side effects get handed out all the time. This is why I'm not entertaining the notion of offering more hypotheticals for you. You disregard common Star Trek knowledge to further your argument at any cost
Sleep inducers are handed out all the time with no ill effects?

You mean the alpha wave inducer mentioned in DS9 "The Passenger", which was mentioned as only being meant for occasional use? I wonder why they wouldn't want it used all the time? Maybe harmful side effects?

The Delta wave inducer? Well, that functions like anasthetic, it keeps you asleep. So, apart from needing someone to take it off whenever you want to wake up, it's a medical device, not something doctors give out to patients.

Neurogenic fields? These, mentioned twice in Voyager - "Waking Moments" and "Bliss" were shown to result in intense halucinations. Not really appropriate, and definitely harmful side effects.

The only one that comes close to this is the somnetic inducer mentioned in "The Mind's Eye", and that was only one episode. And it obviously isn't something that most people have, since Geordi had to get one from Beverly. If he couldn't replicate it, then there may be some side effects associated with it that require it to be prescribed by a doctor.

And as for general sedatives, only two mentioned indicate that they can put people to sleep for several hours, Kayolane and Sonambutril. Both of these are strong sedatives and thus have the potential for serious side effects. In any case, each of these only appeared in one episode, and never as a sleep aid.

In short, your claim that sleep aids are handed out all the time is completely baseless. So don't tell me I'm disregarding common Star Trek knowledge, okay?

Tiberius wrote:
Jellico only wanted to make the switch to four because it was his personal preference.
You did though. You're saying he is making changes for personal preference reasons, & I'm saying it's entirely possible it's all mission related, & you got no ground to suggest otherwise, because you don't know his mission, & it's not my job to invent it for you. He's the captain. The mission was a success on all levels, with no damage to ship or crew being reported. Not a bad captain giving bad orders. End of story.
Rubbish. I do know his mission. I saw him carry it out. And I did not at any point see something that required four duty shifts instead of three.

Your argument that the change to four shifts may have been mission related has no more evidence than my claim that it was personal preference, but all of a sudden I have no right to question your logic while you have the right to question mine? Please. Stop with the hypocrisy.

In short, my arguments that changing to four shifts have been supported by rational arguments and evidence from the episodes. Your arguments have consisted largely of, "Well, you don't know that it wasn't required, so it could have been," and "The captain is always right."

That last one makes me laugh. If I came on the Enterprise as captain and a few hours before a potentially dangerous confrontation I gave the order that everyone had to move to different quarters in a way that they all had completely new neighbours, wouldn't that be a stupid order? Jellico's order to switch to four shifts isn't much better.

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Old June 10 2013, 04:07 AM   #75
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Mojochi wrote: View Post
"In this critical situation, there will be demands placed on all of us that will not be fully appreciated by anyone but ourselves. I do regret that it might be a strain our relationships, but commend you in advance for offering the best you can give. There can be no less for us to succeed"
That works as well. A little more direct than mine, no fluff.

Tiberius wrote: View Post
We know that switching to a four shift rotation is going to cause a lot of problems because Riker says it will.

And as I said before, having four shifts is not required to carry out the mission. So why does Jellico want it? He gives no rationale for his request, no justification. So why shouldn't it be interpreted as personal preference?
I don't mean to intrude on your debate with Mojochi, but while the department heads informed Riker that given the present crew situation a 4 shift rotation would cause significant problems, we don't know exactly what those are. He doesn't say "critical." Is it a significant impact upon morale, or does it mean each shift (or certain ones) cannot be manned to completeness?

As for the rationale, what's easy to miss is that the 4 shift rotation is in anticipation of going into a full fledged combat situation. If negotiations break down and the Enterprise is caught in a difficult spot, Jellico believes the 4 shift rotation will function better. But we never see that come to fruition.

Unfortunately there's not enough time devoted to this issue other than a few sentences here and there. We're never presented with the combat advantage of a 4 shift rotation. So could it have also been Jellico being an ass, just rustling things up so that people realize there's a change in command and not SSDD? Perhaps. We'll never know. It's hard to debate definitively one way or another.
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