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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old June 9 2013, 07:42 PM   #76
TREK_GOD_1
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Re: Which Star Trek movie has got the most plot holes? And the least?

ColeMercury wrote: View Post
As far as plot holes go the worst has got to be Star Trek III: The Search For Spock. The plot makes no sense at all -- Kirk's motivations would only make sense if he knew Spock was alive on Genesis and there was a way to restore his katra, but he doesn't.
He's operating on faith--and his final log report from TWOK:

"There are always possibilities, Spock said. And if Genesis is indeed...life from death, I must return to this place again."

The set up and motive was already in place (the belief that Genesis might restore Spock--the reason Spock's tube was aimed at the planet, rather than anywhere else in space). With that, there's need to question Kirk's resolve after the Sarek conversation in TSFS.
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Old June 9 2013, 07:46 PM   #77
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Re: Which Star Trek movie has got the most plot holes? And the least?

Belz... wrote: View Post

If you want to believe Warp Drive is plausible science fiction, go right ahead. Ditto for replicators, transporters, shields, artificial gravity, inertial dampening, trilithium torpedoes, wormholes, doomsday machines, bodily transmutation, telepathy, hundreds of humanoid races, "pure energy", time travel, red matter, mind transfer, sound in space, impossible space physics, the Nexus, etc.
Quoted for truth.
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Old June 9 2013, 08:08 PM   #78
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Re: Which Star Trek movie has got the most plot holes? And the least?

Lance wrote: View Post
Regarding Reliant not knowing the difference between Ceti Alpha V and Ceti Alpha VI... it just occured to me that Chekov doesn't think to mention Khan until they get down onto the planet. Sure, it's been 15+ years, but surely if one of humanity's most badass super enhanced villains (who actually brought Earth to its knees) was once stranded on a planet in the Ceti Alpha system, you'd think Chekov would at least tell Captain Terrell and the rest about him. Instead it's like he sees the Botany Bay name and he shits his pants. "Oh fuck, I knew there was something I'd forgotten about this star system!"

Basically the entire plot hinges on Chekov being a bit of an idiot.
I rather like that the TWOK novelization mentions something of this nature, and also states that CA6 was a moon of CA5, rather than a distinct planet in its own right. While that makes the naming convention more confusing and silly, I think it meshes better with Khan's description of how the explosion wrecked the environment on CA5. Had another full planet exploded, I don't think they would have survived at all. CA6 was described as being geologically unstable, a fact unknown to Kirk's crew because the area was poorly charted and largely unknown in "Space Seed." Chekov was part of the crew that helped relocate Khan's people to the planet surface.

Chekov does note in the novel that the Reliant is getting inconsistent readings from the system, which is still barely explored as late as TWOK, and he doesn't fully connect the dots until Khan captures him and Terrell. Course, the fact that dialogue suggests Chekov and Terrell mistook CA5 for CA6 kind of goes against this theory.
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Old June 9 2013, 08:44 PM   #79
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Re: Which Star Trek movie has got the most plot holes? And the least?

Unicron wrote: View Post
I rather like that the TWOK novelization mentions something of this nature, and also states that CA6 was a moon of CA5, rather than a distinct planet in its own right. While that makes the naming convention more confusing and silly, I think it meshes better with Khan's description of how the explosion wrecked the environment on CA5. Had another full planet exploded, I don't think they would have survived at all.
That's not how it works, I think. Planets are dozens or hundreds of millions of kilometers from each other. The way Khan describes it, the explosion shifted the orbig of Ceti Alpha V, presumably from gravimetric changes due to the planet's destruction.
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Old June 9 2013, 08:52 PM   #80
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Re: Which Star Trek movie has got the most plot holes? And the least?

Unicron wrote: View Post

I rather like that the TWOK novelization mentions something of this nature, and also states that CA6 was a moon of CA5, rather than a distinct planet in its own right.
This explanation keeps Terrell, Chekov and the Reliant crew from looking like complete idiots.
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Old June 9 2013, 09:50 PM   #81
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Re: Which Star Trek movie has got the most plot holes? And the least?

People seem to mistake a plot contrivance for a plot hole. If there were no plot contrivances these movies would be documentaries.

Every movie or tv show ever made contains numerous plot contrivances.

A plot hole is in Generations where Soren blows up entire planets to get into the nexus when he could just "fly into it in a ship"...
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Old June 9 2013, 10:04 PM   #82
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Re: Which Star Trek movie has got the most plot holes? And the least?

Jon1701 wrote: View Post
People seem to mistake a plot contrivance for a plot hole. If there were no plot contrivances these movies would be documentaries.

Every movie or tv show ever made contains numerous plot contrivances.

A plot hole is in Generations where Soren blows up entire planets to get into the nexus when he could just "fly into it in a ship"...
That was addressed in the movie. Ships that get too close are destroyed. Soran couldn't get to the Nexus, so he found a way to bring it to him.
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Old June 9 2013, 10:56 PM   #83
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Re: Which Star Trek movie has got the most plot holes? And the least?

One has to wonder, though, why the Nexus destroys shis but not people standing on a ledge.

I also wonder if the 1701-B scene was the first Soran saw of the Nexus, or if that was one of his attempts.
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Old June 9 2013, 11:23 PM   #84
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Re: Which Star Trek movie has got the most plot holes? And the least?

Belz... wrote: View Post
One has to wonder, though, why the Nexus destroys shis but not people standing on a ledge.
Timing?

I also wonder if the 1701-B scene was the first Soran saw of the Nexus, or if that was one of his attempts.
Didn't he or someone say that the Borg killed his family? Weren't they running from the Borg when they encountered the Nexus? Since the other El-Aurians had the same experience I assumed it was his first time. He's just the only one we know about that was insane enough to go to extremes to get back there.
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Old June 9 2013, 11:27 PM   #85
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Re: Which Star Trek movie has got the most plot holes? And the least?

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
ColeMercury wrote: View Post
As far as plot holes go the worst has got to be Star Trek III: The Search For Spock. The plot makes no sense at all -- Kirk's motivations would only make sense if he knew Spock was alive on Genesis and there was a way to restore his katra, but he doesn't.
He's operating on faith--and his final log report from TWOK:

"There are always possibilities, Spock said. And if Genesis is indeed...life from death, I must return to this place again."

The set up and motive was already in place (the belief that Genesis might restore Spock--the reason Spock's tube was aimed at the planet, rather than anywhere else in space). With that, there's need to question Kirk's resolve after the Sarek conversation in TSFS.
Kirk simply broke Vulcan tradition by a) shooting Spock's dead body into space and b) not returning his katra. Sarek wanted to bury Spock at home and store his katra somewhere.

They never intended to put Spock's katra back into his body.
The intended to get Spock's dead body (the USS Grissom had reported the finding of the torpedo) and then get McCoy to Vulcan. They were just really lucky that they found Spock alive, and then attempted a different Vulcan procedure that hadn't been performed for centuries.


Kirk also never thought Genesis would revive Spock. He simply started to think positively. Spock died, and an entire new world was born at the same time. He was just being sentimental in his log entry.
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Old June 9 2013, 11:44 PM   #86
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Re: Which Star Trek movie has got the most plot holes? And the least?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Kirk simply broke Vulcan tradition by a) shooting Spock's dead body into space and b) not returning his katra. Sarek wanted to bury Spock at home and store his katra somewhere.

They never intended to put Spock's katra back into his body.
That's a very good interpretation of the movie and it would make a whole lot more sense if they said so explicitely...

...unfortunately when Kirk talks to the admiral about going back, he seems already under the impression that he's going to bring Spock back. What convinced him was the video footage from the rental store... er... surveillance camera. It seems your interpretation, though preferable, is incorrect.
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Old June 10 2013, 04:46 AM   #87
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Re: Which Star Trek movie has got the most plot holes? And the least?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
ColeMercury wrote: View Post
As far as plot holes go the worst has got to be Star Trek III: The Search For Spock. The plot makes no sense at all -- Kirk's motivations would only make sense if he knew Spock was alive on Genesis and there was a way to restore his katra, but he doesn't.
He's operating on faith--and his final log report from TWOK:

"There are always possibilities, Spock said. And if Genesis is indeed...life from death, I must return to this place again."

The set up and motive was already in place (the belief that Genesis might restore Spock--the reason Spock's tube was aimed at the planet, rather than anywhere else in space). With that, there's need to question Kirk's resolve after the Sarek conversation in TSFS.
Kirk simply broke Vulcan tradition by a) shooting Spock's dead body into space and b) not returning his katra. Sarek wanted to bury Spock at home and store his katra somewhere.

They never intended to put Spock's katra back into his body.
The intended to get Spock's dead body (the USS Grissom had reported the finding of the torpedo) and then get McCoy to Vulcan. They were just really lucky that they found Spock alive, and then attempted a different Vulcan procedure that hadn't been performed for centuries.


Kirk also never thought Genesis would revive Spock. He simply started to think positively. Spock died, and an entire new world was born at the same time. He was just being sentimental in his log entry.
See, that's precisely what makes no sense to me. I could believe them committing conspiracy, sabotage and treason to bring Spock back to life. But merely to retrieve Spock's corpse? How is the resting-place of his corpse in any way relevant to his katra? The only reason they'd logically need Spock's body at all is to bring him back to life -- but they didn't know they could do that until they arrived at Genesis.
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Old June 10 2013, 06:02 AM   #88
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Re: Which Star Trek movie has got the most plot holes? And the least?

Carcazoid wrote: View Post
Jon1701 wrote: View Post
A plot hole is in Generations where Soren blows up entire planets to get into the nexus when he could just "fly into it in a ship"...
That was addressed in the movie. Ships that get too close are destroyed. Soran couldn't get to the Nexus, so he found a way to bring it to him.
Belz... wrote: View Post
One has to wonder, though, why the Nexus destroys shis but not people standing on a ledge.
Or indeed why Kirk, floating in space, ends up in the Nexus. If it was that simple then all Soran needed to do was throw himself out the airlock of his ship. Of course, Soran might not have known it was that "simple".
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Old June 10 2013, 07:29 AM   #89
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Re: Which Star Trek movie has got the most plot holes? And the least?

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I'd love to read what Harlan Ellison said.
Ellison's review is reprinted in the book Harlan Ellison's Watching, which can be read via Google Books. My favorite barb of his is this one:

The plot is woebegone and predictable. It is also riddled with holes that let one perceive the vacuum lying beyond.
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Old June 10 2013, 08:03 AM   #90
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Re: Which Star Trek movie has got the most plot holes? And the least?

Carcazoid wrote: View Post
Jon1701 wrote: View Post
People seem to mistake a plot contrivance for a plot hole. If there were no plot contrivances these movies would be documentaries.

Every movie or tv show ever made contains numerous plot contrivances.

A plot hole is in Generations where Soren blows up entire planets to get into the nexus when he could just "fly into it in a ship"...
That was addressed in the movie. Ships that get too close are destroyed. Soran couldn't get to the Nexus, so he found a way to bring it to him.
Nah, Its a hole.

Kirk got in that way, so did Guinan (sort of).

It doesn't matter whether your ship gets destroyed or not, you still end up in the nexus it would seem. Maybe with a bit more dialogue they could have explained things better but thats what the movie clearly shows.

I always remember a review from 94 for Generations that descibed that plot as having "more holes than a golf course"...
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Last edited by Jon1701; June 10 2013 at 08:19 AM.
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