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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old June 9 2013, 02:15 AM   #196
Guy Gardener
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

The Prime Directive cannot apply to species which have declared war on the Federatio... Oh, the Mouse that Roared, the Prime Directive cannot apply to species that have the muscle to back up a declaration of War against the Federation.

Besides, Starfleet doesn't declare war or accept declarations of War. The Federation does. The Federation Council is not Bound by Starfleet Regulations. Starfleet is an arm of the Federation that does what it's told, but surely it won't follow ridiculously illegal orders just like anyone else wouldn't either?

China got Iraq's oil. That's hilarious.
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Old June 9 2013, 03:11 AM   #197
Undead
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

Personally, I think FASA might have come up with the best description of the Prime Directive in their Federation sourcebook. It certainly sounds better to me (with the best part bolded) than some of the canonical attempts to explain or defend it.

As the right of each sentient species to live in accordance with its normal cultural evolution is considered sacred, no Star Fleet personnel may interfere with the healthy development of alien life and culture. Such interference includes the introduction of superior knowledge, strength or technology to a world whose society is incapable of handling such advantages wisely. Star Fleet personnel may not violate this Prime Directive, even to save their lives and/or their ship, unless they are acting to right an earlier violation or an accidental contamination of such culture. This directive takes precedence over any and all other considerations, and carries with it the highest moral obligation.
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Old June 9 2013, 03:46 AM   #198
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

MacLeod wrote: View Post

No one is saying that experiances don't change you, but if you were against doing A, and an experiance changed your mind so you didn't mind doing A. Fine. Just don't go back to be against A, then in favour of A, then against A.

For example in ST if you believe that the PD should be upheld despite your circumstances, fine. If an experiance changed your mind to never mind the PD I'll do whatever it takes, fine. But if you are flip-flopping bewtween the two then there is an issue.

I would also expect starfleet Officers esp. those that have acheived the rank of Captain, to have had training not to act irrationaly based on some personal problem.
Actually, if you look at shows like TNG, you will see a lot of flip-flopping regarding the PD. It has to do with the argument that the PD is probably not as solid as one thinks it to be.

With that, notice that complexity of behavior extends even to circumstances. For me, that's what makes stories well-made.

In any event, don't confuse consistency with the creation of cardboard cut-out characters.
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Old June 9 2013, 03:53 AM   #199
Guy Gardener
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

That's far too wordy Unicron.

I personally believe that any Captain who thinks that they have the right to break the Prime Directive to put right a cockup which they are personally responsible for creating in the first place is a sanctimonious prick, because by fluffing up so awfully enough to wreck an entire culture once, only proves that they already have a history of fluffing up enough to wreck a planet and that they have a predilection for fluffing up so bad that they can wreck any planet no matter what wise decisions which they think are the safest most timid courses of action because they are too clueless to anticipate even the immediate knock effects from any Culture rape they are in the process of committing, and the therefore can't be trusted to put into motion a controlled Prime Directive breach/Culture rape, which they think(hope/wish/gamble) will lessen the last culture rape, reduce the rape aftermath/aftershocks, when they are already responsible for raping a culture to the point of fluff, where they are already criminally responsible enough to lose their ship, which means that there are no further consequences to their continued raping of an alien culture that they can't lose their ship twice, so they might as well continuing raping the culture until it seems less likely that they will lose their ship.

You don't fix rape, with more rape.

(In the Reeves-Stevens novel Prime Directive, set after the TV show, Kirk lost his ship for breaking the Prime Directive.)
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Old June 9 2013, 04:07 AM   #200
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

But there are degrees. When they left the communicator behind in ENT's The Communicator it wouldn't have raped the culture to just leave it there. Someone would have developed the tech earlier than normal (perhaps) and one government may have ended up in a more powerful position than they would have as a result of that. The idea that every jot and tiddle is a culture's destiny gets sucked into PD at times, oh noes he never would have been able to seize power if he hadn't learned the power of transistor radios 80 years before his culture should have. Well so what, someone is always in power and unlike with Edith Keeler where they knew there was an unfavourable outcome who is to say that transistor power guy wouldn't have been a happy alternative to a naturally developed tyranny that the culture was in for?

Rape is what the Founders did to the living-in-trees Vorta.
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Old June 9 2013, 04:19 AM   #201
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

Oh definitely there are shades and degrees.

Some times the Federation might accidentally find the tip where it's not supposed to be, other times someone like the Founders go balls deep.
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