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Old June 7 2013, 06:28 PM   #16
T'Girl
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Re: Did Sisko ever break the Prime Directive?

Kirk was caught in the "temperal vortex" with Spock when the other researchers accidently changed Vulcan's history, that's why Kirk remembered Spock, and no one else did.

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Old June 8 2013, 04:06 AM   #17
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Did Sisko ever break the Prime Directive?

R. Star wrote: View Post
Of course sneezing is a violation of the Prime Directive. You're contaminating their ecosystem with your alien germs!

To the Emissary role... yes you said it yourself he discouraged it... at first. Later he didn't and fully embraced it. That's text book interference.

The Tosk incident wasn't a violation because he let him on the station. It was interference when Sisko underhandedly help O'brien break Tosk out so the Hunters wouldn't get him.

ITPM was textbook internal interference. It doesn't matter that they had prior conflicts with the Dominion, they weren't a part of the war at that point, and Sisko and Garak underhandedly manipulated the Romulan political system to force the Romulan Star Empire to enter the war. Garak took it a step further but that was what Sisko was setting out to do from the teaser of that episode. If that's not internal interference, what is?
Interfering in a Romulan Civil War.

The Romulans were part of the war because Sisko was absolutely correct the Dominion had plans to conquer Romulus and just didn't have any proof.

What Sisko did was an ethical violation but no more an interference of the PD than what Picard did in Redemption.

In Past Tense, accidentally getting Bell killed was a PD violation, but afterward taking on his historical role was not.
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Old June 8 2013, 07:13 PM   #18
Admiral_Sisko
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Re: Did Sisko ever break the Prime Directive?

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Sisko told Worf to... do whatever it takes. Come on... what do you expect him to do? Previously both Picard -and- Sisko had reprimanded Worf for putting his Klingon culture over his behavior as a Starfleet officer... so you can't have it both ways. If Sisko can reprimand Worf for trying to kill his brother at his own request... he can't go back on that and say oh.. well do your Klingon thing now and kill Gowron. Not without being hypocritical anyways... but hey, war brings out the worst in people.
I always hated how Sisko reacted and reprimanded Worf for his attempt to kill Kurn in that ritual suicide. Sisko: Mr. Religious Tolerance for the religiously intolerant Bajorans, has a problem with other people expressing their faith. Hypocrite. Riker was willing to kill Worf when Worf thought he would be paralyzed for life. Riker was conflicted about it but they were friends so he would honor his friend's last right.

The Gowron thing just kind of happened and Sisko probably didn't intend for Worf to kill him. Hell had Worf embraced the role as ruler of the empire. Sisko would've really been thrown for a loop.
I don't think Sisko was a hypocrite. Bear in mind that although he was a religious figure, he was also captain of a Federation-controlled space station. Allowing Worf to carry out a suicide ritual is akin to opening Pandora's box. If Sisko allows one officer to indulge in such a violent display of his faith, where does he draw the line when someone else chooses to take a similar action? Consider what happened later that same year aboard DS9. A Bajoran vedek killed an innocent man because his family name was supposedly "unclean." Are you advocating Sisko allowing such behavior to continue unchecked?

What I never understood about "Sons of Mogh" was why Worf didn't request a leave of absence and take Kurn away from the station before performing the ritual. If he had carried out the suicide on a neutral planet- with no ties to either the Federation or the Klingon Empire, it's likely the entire mess would have been avoided. I suppose it's possible Worf couldn't be spared, as Kira was away from the station at the episode's outset, and Commander Eddington was said to have been on shore leave in a recent episode ("Crossfire"), so his taking personal time would have been impossible.
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Old June 9 2013, 01:15 AM   #19
AllStarEntprise
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Re: Did Sisko ever break the Prime Directive?

Eh DS9 was a Bajoran space station. As such it's prejudice for Siskoto allow Bajorans who call everyone who doesn't believe in their gods infidels, but prohibit Worf from carrying out a ritual with a family member. Also keep in mind Klingons are apart of the Federation. The Bajorans are not. Part of being in the Federation is accepting all cultures, races and customs as they are. Sisko seemed unfairly critical of Worf because the act was view as murder rather than ritual. In the same breath saying he allows cultural diversity to an extent. He seemed to forget Bajoran's racist views of Cardassians. To my knowledge he has never once tried to curtail or persuade Bajorans from thinking or acting that way against them. Hypocrite. If Sisko had walked the Picard line and made his criticism of Worf's actions purely and infringement of StarFleet protocol then I would overlook this. But Sisko didn't and got personally involved in a matter. No different than a Captain in a navy allowing orthodox Jews free reign to do whatever but marginalizing atheists because they don't adhere to the sabbath.
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Old June 9 2013, 01:43 AM   #20
Admiral_Sisko
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Re: Did Sisko ever break the Prime Directive?

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
Eh DS9 was a Bajoran space station. As such it's prejudice for Siskoto allow Bajorans who call everyone who doesn't believe in their gods infidels, but prohibit Worf from carrying out a ritual with a family member. Also keep in mind Klingons are apart of the Federation. The Bajorans are not. Part of being in the Federation is accepting all cultures, races and customs as they are. Sisko seemed unfairly critical of Worf because the act was view as murder rather than ritual. In the same breath saying he allows cultural diversity to an extent. He seemed to forget Bajoran's racist views of Cardassians. To my knowledge he has never once tried to curtail or persuade Bajorans from thinking or acting that way against them. Hypocrite. If Sisko had walked the Picard line and made his criticism of Worf's actions purely and infringement of StarFleet protocol then I would overlook this. But Sisko didn't and got personally involved in a matter. No different than a Captain in a navy allowing orthodox Jews free reign to do whatever but marginalizing atheists because they don't adhere to the sabbath.
You're wrong. First of all, the Klingons are an independent nation state. They are not part of the United Federation of Planets. Worf was a Federation citizen and Starfleet officer because he was raised on Earth by human parents, but his people are not members of the Federation government. Get your facts straight.

Second, there is no comparison between the Bajorans thinking negatively of non-believers and Worf's decision to assist in his brother's suicide. Worf took an action that was in violation of Starfleet regulations, regulations that he swore to obey. As a Starfleet officer, Sisko has the same obligation to follow regulations that Worf has, which is why he threatened to relieve Worf of duty after the incident.

Sisko was not alone in his assessment of Worf's behavior. I would remind you that Picard told Worf that he was unable to follow Starfleet protocol that he should resign his commission following Worf's decision to kill Duras in honorable combat. Why? Because Worf's behavior violated Stafleet regulations, regulations that Worf swore to uphold, but violated.

As far as the Bajorans are concerned, it's not Sisko's place to tell a group of people how to think as long as they don't take negative action based on those thoughts. Racism is deplorable, but it's not a crime to believe another person to be inferior. It is a crime to harm another person because one believes he or she is inferior. That's why Sisko didn't attempt to correct the Bajorans attitudes: he may not have agreed with them, but thoughts don't break the law: actions do. See the difference?

Sisko isn't a hypocrite because he's able to discern the difference between the two situations: he's simply being responsible.
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Old June 9 2013, 02:50 AM   #21
AllStarEntprise
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Re: Did Sisko ever break the Prime Directive?

With liberty and just for some then.

My issue is that Sisko took Worf's act as a personal offense. When Sisko himself is a religious figure and spiritual man himself. Its wasn't a violation of starfleet protocol that caused Sisko to judge Worf. t was the act was viewed as premeditated murder in his eyes. Like I said had Sisko walked the Picard line and remained unbiased in his reprimand I could except it but he didn't.

His decision seems to be purely because his views on life and death are different from another persons culture. While Picard empathetic to the nature and gave Worf the option to resign. Riker was equally understanding and even willing to carry out the same ritual for Worf back I'm TNG. While Riker serving onboard a Klingon ship and learning how Klingons view those who live when they should die gave Riker an enhanced perception in to the mind of a different culture.

Sisko comes in like inflexible bishop
Preaching his beliefs and not leaving any room for discussion for clarification. You can't use the Starfleet protocol breach as an excuse for his actions because Sisko himself didn't use it. While the star fleet violation is a correct method of interpreting it. Sisko let his personal biases judge that situation and his response to it

Last edited by AllStarEntprise; June 9 2013 at 03:11 AM.
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Old June 9 2013, 04:12 AM   #22
Admiral_Sisko
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Re: Did Sisko ever break the Prime Directive?

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
My issue is that Sisko took Worf's act as a personal offense. When Sisko himself is a religious figure and spiritual man himself. Its wasn't a violation of starfleet protocol that caused Sisko to judge Worf. t was the act was viewed as premeditated murder in his eyes. Like I said had Sisko walked the Picard line and remained unbiased in his reprimand I could except it but he didn't.
Your statement makes no sense. What evidence do you have that Sisko took Worf's actions personally? He was angry with Worf because what he did, but eventually allowed both Worf and his brother to assist in disabling the Klingon minefield. It seems to me that he was able to put any misgivings about Worf aside in order to what was best for his crew. If you believe that his anger in and of itself is evidence of his taking it personally, let me ask you this: if an officer under your command suddenly took an action that could have negative repercussions for both himself and for the remainder of your crew, would you not be upset about it?

Sisko may have crossed the line by yelling at Worf, but he was hardly the only person to react that way. Odo did the same, and he was also prepared to file murder charges if Kurn didn't survive his stab wound. Why? Because Worf broke the law. His personal feelings had nothing to do with his responsibilities as chief of security, just as Sisko's feelings had nothing to do with his responsibilities as the commander of the station.

Even if one ignores the issue of Starfleet regulations (as you believe I should do because of Sisko's statements), one cannot ignore the following reality: there are limits to how far one can go to accommodate another person's culture and beliefs- which is precisely what Sisko says to Worf- even in the twenty fourth century. What do you think would happen in today's society if someone killed another person in the name of his or her religion? Would such behavior be tolerated? I doubt it. Why does it surprise you that someone living in the twenty fourth century would adopt a similar stance?

Even the Star Trek universe must employ standards governing behavior, or anyone could use the "it's the belief of my species" excuse to justify any action. Do you have any idea the repercussions of allowing such behavior to go unchecked? That's why Sisko was so upset with Worf, not because he took Worf's actions personally. Sisko realized- as you apparently do not- that even as one seeks to understand and embrace other cultures, there are limits to how far one can reasonably be expected to do so. Greater diversity entails greater flexibility in dealing with other races and cultures, because a degree of tolerance is necessary in order to ensure cooperation with other species. That does not mean, however, that one must tolerate every aspect of another culture.

Allowing Worf to do as he pleased- even to resolve a family matter- risked opening a Pandora's box. If Sisko made exceptions for Worf, he would have had to make similar allowances for other crew members, allowances that would have eventually interfered with his crew's ability to do its job. It's not a matter of Starfleet regulations. It's a matter of common sense.

Sisko addresses the subject of limits not as an excuse, but as a statement of fact. There are limits that determine how far one can go, even when dealing with a species as complex as the Klingons. To imply that the Klingons are free to do as they please simply because they are Klingons is as irresponsible and short-sighted as refusing to grant the Klingons any latitude at all.

Sisko's status as a religious figure has nothing to do with situation. It was not Sisko's choice to become the Emissary of the Prophets. He was, however, willing to serve in that role because he believed that doing so would help to strengthen the relationship between Bajor and the Federation, something that was absolutely necessary if Bajor was to join the Federation- Sisko's primary mission as commander of Deep Space 9.

Consider another aspect of the situation that seems to have alluded you: at the time of "Sons of Mogh," Sisko had known Worf for only a few months. Picard had known Worf for more than three years at the time of "Reunion." As he was much more familiar with Worf's character, it's not surprising that his reaction to Worf's behavior differed from that of Sisko, who did not know him as well.

AllStarEntprise wrote:
His decision seems to be purely because his views on life and death are different from another persons culture. While Picard empathetic to the nature and gave Worf the option to resign. Riker was equally understanding and even willing to carry out the same ritual for Worf back I'm TNG. While Riker serving onboard a Klingon ship and learning how Klingons view those who live when they should die gave Riker an enhanced perception in to the mind of a different culture.
I will repeat what I said before: get your facts straight. Worf did not ask Riker to perform the same type of ritual. Kurn's assisted suicide (the Mauk-to'Vor) was arranged as a means to allow Kurn to die with honor because his family had been disgraced. Worf's ritual (the Hegh'bat) was intended to allow him to die honorably rather than living the remainder of his life dependent on other people or on medical technology in order to properly care for himself.

Riker was not willing to participate in an assisted suicide ritual for Worf. He was extremely troubled by the idea, and sought the advice of Picard because he was having so much difficulty with the situation. He made his feelings clear when he later confronted Worf about the issue. He said, "I hate everything about it... the casual disregard for life... it tries to cloak suicide in some glorious notion of honor. I may have to respect your beliefs... but I don't have to like them."

Additionally, Sisko did give Worf the opportunity explain himself, albeit in a somewhat brusque manner: "I want you tell me why I shouldn't put you on the next transport out of here." It's not as though he was unwilling to hear Worf out, and as I've already pointed out to you, he did give Worf an opportunity to redeem himself later in the episode, an action that clearly illustrates a degree of empathy with Worf's plight as well as a willingness to put his own feelings aside in order to accomplish a mission, which is exactly what a competent leader is expected to do. Sisko was not a hypocrite for putting his crew first, nor was he wrong to take Worf to task for his behavior.
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Old June 10 2013, 04:47 AM   #23
-Brett-
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Re: Did Sisko ever break the Prime Directive?

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
My issue is that Sisko took Worf's act as a personal offense. When Sisko himself is a religious figure and spiritual man himself. Its wasn't a violation of starfleet protocol that caused Sisko to judge Worf. t was the act was viewed as premeditated murder in his eyes. Like I said had Sisko walked the Picard line and remained unbiased in his reprimand I could except it but he didn't.
Chewing out Worf for the attempted murder/assisted suicide was hardly a unique event. The drill instructor act seemed to be Sisko's preferred method of dealing with issues of military discipline. It probably shouldn't be seen as personal offense. Picard seemed to prefer the disapproving father figure routine, and that's fine, but it's not the only valid approach.
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Old June 10 2013, 10:58 AM   #24
Blackhorse47
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Re: Did Sisko ever break the Prime Directive?

Doesn't he knowingly break the Prime Directive in the one where the first Kai dies? I think he used the little known get out clause of this culture isn't developing, so that's all right then.
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Old June 10 2013, 02:13 PM   #25
AllStarEntprise
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Re: Did Sisko ever break the Prime Directive?

-Brett- wrote: View Post
AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
My issue is that Sisko took Worf's act as a personal offense. When Sisko himself is a religious figure and spiritual man himself. Its wasn't a violation of starfleet protocol that caused Sisko to judge Worf. t was the act was viewed as premeditated murder in his eyes. Like I said had Sisko walked the Picard line and remained unbiased in his reprimand I could except it but he didn't.
Chewing out Worf for the attempted murder/assisted suicide was hardly a unique event. The drill instructor act seemed to be Sisko's preferred method of dealing with issues of military discipline. It probably shouldn't be seen as personal offense. Picard seemed to prefer the disapproving father figure routine, and that's fine, but it's not the only valid approach.
Sisko is the hardass command type. I can admire and respect that. I find it ironic however that Sisko is so abrasive about the subject of religious practices of others when he himself is a religious icons to the Bajorans.

He is "The Emissary", "The Sisko", half-prophet on his mothers side, the wormhole aliens are by extention his extended supernatural family, he has labors to complete with the gods of Bajor before his resurrection.

I've complied a video of the events in question. From TNG Reunion, TNG Ethics, VOY Barge of the Dead and DS9 Sons of Mogh. Now we'll hear straight from the horses mouth what exactly was said since Admiral Sisko is being a stickler about precise facts. Keep in mind my original post was that i found Sisko's reaction to the situation disingenuous considering his own unique character and the response he gave to it. As you'll see there are indeed limits Starfleet puts religious practice. However those protocols were not used by Sisko when he addressed Worf. When Dax tried to explain the situation Sisko retorted "At the moment I don't give a damn about, Klingon belief, religion or customs". Does he want an explanation or not?




I digress I'll let the video do the talking

First clip is from TNG Season 4 ep 6 Reunion. When Worf killed Duras in revenge for Duras killing Keylar. Picard confronts Worf on his actions for violating Starfleet protocol.

Second Clip TNG Season 5 ep 16 Ethics. When Worf is paralyzed and contemplates suicide. Riker confronts him and finds a loophole to Worf's request.

Third clip from VOY season 6 ep 3 Barge of the Dead. B'Elanna wants to chase a fever dream by simulating death but Janeway won't allow her to pursue her plan.. Partially because Janeway doubts the validity of what B'Elanna experienced, it's also a violation of Starfleet protocol like Picard pointed out in Reunion. But mostly because B'Elanna is the chief engineer on VOY and she isn't about to allow B'Elanna to potentially kill herself for what could be a vivid dream.

Fourth clip is from DS9 season 4 episode 15. Kurn asks Worf to end his life by performing a Klingon ritual. Dax and Odo intervene and rescue Kurn before he dies. Sisko dresses down Worf. Using what I feel is his own personal biases to condemn Worf rather than the spelled out regulations that Picard, Riker and Janeway mentioned.

See for yourself

Last edited by AllStarEntprise; June 10 2013 at 02:34 PM.
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Old June 10 2013, 04:15 PM   #26
Sran
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Re: Did Sisko ever break the Prime Directive?

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
Sisko is the hardass command type. I can admire and respect that. I find it ironic however that Sisko is so abrasive about the subject of religious practices of others when he himself is a religious icons to the Bajorans.
Sisko is a Starfleet officer. His status as a Bajoran religious icon does not preclude his addressing potentially troublesome situations that arise under his command, be they situations of a religious nature or otherwise. Worf’s actions may have been consistent with Klingon beliefs, but they represented an extreme application of said beliefs. That he failed to anticipate the consequences of his behavior is his fault, and it’s not Sisko’s job to let him off the hook merely because he was undertaking a Klingon ritual.

AllStarEntprise wrote:
Now we'll hear straight from the horses mouth what exactly was said since Admiral Sisko is being a stickler about precise facts.
This comment is both childish and petty. You have incorrectly cited examples taken from various episodes to strengthen your argument. Admiral_Sisko is absolutely correct in pointing out your mistakes.

AllStarEntprise wrote:
As you'll see there are indeed limits Starfleet puts religious practice. However those protocols were not used by Sisko when he addressed Worf. When Dax tried to explain the situation Sisko retorted "At the moment I don't give a damn about, Klingon belief, religion or customs". Does he want an explanation or not?
You’ve misinterpreted Sisko’s point. The following is the conversation in his office:

Sisko: “Mr. Worf, I want you to tell me why I shouldn’t put you on the next transport out of here.”

Worf: “You are well within your right to do so.

Sisko: “I’m not talking about my rights. Answer my question.”

Worf: “Captain, I do not have an answer. I realize that my actions were in violation of Starfleet regulations…”

Sisko: “Regulations? We’re not talking about some obscure technicality, Mr. Worf. You tried to commit pre-meditated murder.”
Sisko is not disregarding Starfleet protocol in making this statement. His point is that Worf’s actions were so extreme that they violated any number of Starfleet regulations. He doesn’t cite the regulations by name, but one need not quote the rulebook in order to properly observe it. Anyone with a shred of common sense should have been able to recognize the problems presented by undertaking such a controversial ritual. That Worf appears lack common sense is his weakness, not Sisko’s.

Dax: “Benjamin, it wasn’t murder. Worf and Kurn were performing a Mauk-to’Vor ritual. It’s part of Klingon beliefs that when…”

Sisko: “At the moment, I don’t give a damn about Klingon beliefs, rituals, or customs. I have given you both a lot of leeway when it comes to following Klingon traditions. But in case you haven’t noticed, this is not a Klingon station, and those are not Klingon uniforms you’re wearing. There is a limit to how far I’ll go to accommodate cultural diversity among my officers, and you’ve just reached it.”
Once again, Sisko does not cite specific regulations, but the meaning of his statement is obvious. Whatever Worf’s religious beliefs, he chose to serve Starfleet. Starfleet’s premise is exploration, but the organization is military in nature. It’s not a democracy. Sisko is under no obligation to bend over backwards for his officers. They work for him, not the other way around. It is Worf’s responsibility to follow the orders of his commanding officer.

Although it’s unlikely Sisko issued specific orders regarding the practice of Klingon customs, it’s not difficult to understand which types of behavior he found acceptable, and which types he did not. By the time he started serving aboard Deep Space 9, Worf had been in Starfleet long enough to anticipate how his human colleagues would perceive an assisted suicide ritual. That he was unable to do so is no one’s fault but his own.

AllStarEntprise wrote:
Dax and Odo intervene and rescue Kurn before he dies. Sisko dresses down Worf. Using what I feel is his own personal biases to condemn Worf rather than the spelled out regulations that Picard, Riker and Janeway mentioned.
Worf is a Starfleet officer. He shouldn't need regulations spelled out for him. If he does, then he has no business serving aboard a Starfleet vessel or space station.

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Old June 10 2013, 05:20 PM   #27
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Re: Did Sisko ever break the Prime Directive?

Sisko has a punching bag with the prime directive written on it.
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Old June 10 2013, 05:26 PM   #28
Sran
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Re: Did Sisko ever break the Prime Directive?

G2309 wrote: View Post
Sisko has a punching bag with the prime directive written on it.
Interesting metaphor, given what we've seen he does to punching bags.

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Old June 10 2013, 05:38 PM   #29
cheesepuff316
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Re: Did Sisko ever break the Prime Directive?

Actually Riker deliberately wouldn't help Worf commit suicide - look at what he says in "Ethics"
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Old June 10 2013, 05:52 PM   #30
Sran
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Re: Did Sisko ever break the Prime Directive?

cheesepuff316 wrote: View Post
Actually Riker deliberately wouldn't help Worf commit suicide - look at what he says in "Ethics"
You're correct. AllStarEntprise is apparently content to ignore the facts of any situation he cites as part of his argument. That's probably why Admiral_Sisko called him out.

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