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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

View Poll Results: Which is the most powerful military?
Starfleet 17 22.08%
Klingons 2 2.60%
Romulans 1 1.30%
Dominion 57 74.03%
Voters: 77. You may not vote on this poll

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Old June 7 2013, 09:50 AM   #16
R. Star
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

Well at demonstrated in Paradise Lost, the Excelsiors were refitted with modern equipment to make them comparable to modern ships in battle. No reason the Mirandas weren't either. Though I just always thought that the Federation using old Mirandas and what not was just them putting every hull they could into space because they needed them. It's common practice for navies these days to keep a reserve fleet of older classes in storage in case they need to rapidly expand their navy if a war breaks out.
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Old June 7 2013, 10:01 AM   #17
AllStarEntprise
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

^ Ah see I forgot about that episode. Where and Excelsior class fought a Defiant class. The two being roughly equal outside the Defiant had ablative armor and Defiant wasn't out to kill.
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Old June 7 2013, 09:32 PM   #18
kgartm1185
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

R. Star wrote: View Post
Interesting statistics.. I'd be curious as to the source of those. Nothing from the show I'm sure, given they only gave vague fleet numbers at best.

Though it's odd that your list has almost no one but Starfleet with any support vessels. If anything the opposite would be true because smaller craft are easier to build than capital ships.
http://www.ditl.org/index.php?ListID...&ListReset=Yes
It supposedly has canon information.
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Old June 7 2013, 10:08 PM   #19
-Brett-
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

The only "canon" is from the shows and movies. Everything else is fanfic.

Also, that's quite possibly the ugliest website I've ever seen.
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Old June 7 2013, 10:15 PM   #20
TheRoyalFamily
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

If by nothing else, the Dominion has the numbers to beat anyone else. Just their small advance fleet, bolstered by the Cardassians, was enough to make big advances at the beginning of the war. Also, unlike Starfleet, the Dominion's big ships are pure warship.

Of course, a big part of the Dominion's wins at various points were due to weapons that the alpha-alliance couldn't counter: first it was just their regular weapons - the smallest Trek ship weapons can tear apart an effectively unshielded, unarmored starship, even a big one like a Galaxy-class.; later it was the Breen power drain weapon. After those challenges were overcome, the Allies were back on the offensive (especially with Romulan support).
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Old June 8 2013, 09:54 PM   #21
Crazyewok
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

If we ignore the Borg.
Dominion hands down no question.

The only reason the Romulans, Feds and Kilingons were not wiped off the map in weeks was because the wormhole was blocked one way or another.

If the dominion was able to send reinforcements it would have been game over. And that was stated throughout the show.



A dark horse that I think would be equal or better than the feds are the Kremin in the delta quadrant. Infact they are so close to borg space it look like they are pretty powerfull to have survived especialy with there advanced weaponry.
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Old June 8 2013, 10:33 PM   #22
T'Girl
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

TheRoyalFamily wrote: View Post
If by nothing else, the Dominion has the numbers to beat anyone else.
If Starfleet had exercised control over access to the Alpha Quad through the wormhole by mining the mouth early on, the Dominion's numbers would have been largely meaningless.

Starfleet is often quite stupid.

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Old June 10 2013, 12:00 AM   #23
Timo
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

The thing is, Starfleet did mine shut the wormhole, and did devastate Dominion dockyards on the Alpha side right thereafter - and still the Dominion beachhead force appeared to outproduce the combined Alpha forces! Dominion numerical superiority was a constant worry during the following years of war, even though we never heard of any Starfleet, Romulan or Klingon ship production or repair facilities getting destroyed or damaged...

It supposedly has canon information.
The thing about DITL is that it's color-coded: most of the stuff there is speculation, but whenever it's based on canon bits, those are indicated by their own color of friendly yellow. Green indicates something gleaned from backstage sources, while white and red mark pure speculation.

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Old June 10 2013, 12:22 AM   #24
Sran
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

T'Girl wrote: View Post
If Starfleet had exercised control over access to the Alpha Quad through the wormhole by mining the mouth early on, the Dominion's numbers would have been largely meaningless.

Starfleet is often quite stupid.

Starfleet attempted to collapse the wormhole before the Dominion entered the Alpha Quadrant during "In Purgatory's Shadow," only to have their efforts thwarted by the Changeling impersonating Dr. Bashir. O'Brien and Dax investigated the sabotage to Deep Space 9's systems and determined that even trilithium explosives would not be enough to collapse the wormhole due to the Changeling's intervention. As to why the wormhole was mined after the Dominion entered the Alpha Quadrant, it's difficult to say. Perhaps that's what happens when bureaucrats are calling the shots.

--Shran
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Old June 10 2013, 07:45 PM   #25
TheRoyalFamily
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

They didn't mine the wormhole until it was absolutely clear that war was inevitable, and the Dominion was setting up an invasion force. Up until that point, they were merely "defending their ["ally's"] space," reenforcing Cardassian space, since the Klingons destroyed much of the Cardassian military.
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Old June 10 2013, 09:23 PM   #26
Timo
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

It is also rather likely that Starfleet simply wasn't ready for war yet. We heard later on that Starfleet had thousands of ships - but several episodes had established that it was impossible to bring such numbers to the vicinity of DS9 in any appreciable time. Indeed, it was only ever possible to summon less than a dozen ships in peacetime, even when the reason for summoning was that a foreign fleet numbering hundreds of ships was going to war! ("Way of the Warrior", "The Die is Cast") We also failed to witness any appreciable shipbuilding during the war: all ships witnessed had registries lower than those of ships seen before the war, and the one documented newbuild, USS Sao Paulo, was a rather small unit.

It thus would be easy to speculate that Starfleet can go to war only by waiting for two years. Right after the events of "Jem'Hadar", the call to war would have been covertly sounded, and thousands of ships would have begun to gather. But they would be gathering from that uniquely UFP thing, deep space exploration errands, and would not reach home until months or years of travel.

Thus, delaying and delaying again would be the only way for the UFP to reach the balance in numbers required for successful waging of war. And that would mean delaying even when the Dominion started pushing forces into Alpha, until the looming numerical defeat tilted the balances and made an attack, however premature, the better chance for survival.

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Old June 10 2013, 10:50 PM   #27
Crazyewok
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

Timo wrote: View Post
It. But they would be gathering from that uniquely UFP thing, deep space exploration errands, and would not reach home until months or years of travel.
Kinda makes starfleet look like usless baffoons that even after wolf 359 they still cant be botherd to keep a sizeable force in core federation terratory. It amazeing the Federation lasted that long
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Old June 10 2013, 11:01 PM   #28
Pavonis
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

Apparently the Federation's nearest neighbors and antagonists are all evenly matched. That is to say, Starfleet is strong enough where it needs to be to keep the Klingons (when they were enemies), the Romulans, and the Cardassians at bay. Not to mention the fact that we don't really know the strengths or typical dispositions of the Klingon, Romulan or Cardassian fleets. Why should the Feds keep a large contingent of their starships close to home, when keeping them "out there" seems to work for them? If there are any dangerous foes to be dealt with, a starship on the frontier is a better warning system and possibly a better deterrent than any large force stuck close to home.

In sum, the Federation's continued existence suggests their strategy with regards to Starfleet's deployment is the correct one.
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Old June 10 2013, 11:01 PM   #29
Timo
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

Well, they still win their wars, plus they know more about their neighborhood than the competition.

There's no need to keep sizeable forces at any location if one can rest assured that one's ships are fast enough to get there before the enemy does. Which depends on the speed of the enemy as much as it depends on the speed of the defender.

The Klingons or the Romulans would probably be quite unable to penetrate to any appreciable depth before the UFP got enough ships together to slow them down, allowing further ships to gather and slow them down further, etc., until finally the attack would grind to a halt. Not so with the superfast Borg, or with enemies like V'Ger or the Whale Probe that cannot be slowed down or stopped by any amount of firepower!

The Dominion did not have a speed advantage that we'd know of. What they did have was a convenient smokescreen to prevent the UFP from witnessing a slow buildup of forces - the chasm between Gamma and Alpha quadrants, only spanned by the wormhole. Thus, the Dominion could spit out alarming numbers of ships to a location close to the UFP in a short time, upsetting any defensive calculations based on speed and numbers alone.

We know that making do with as few ships as possible is a major advantage: building or operating starships in great numbers is a known bottleneck, as we can see from the fact that Starfleet is short on ships even in peacetime and does nothing to improve the situation. So if the Klingons keep "standing fleets" idled close to strategic spots, but the Feds have their ships do useful work in peacetime, the UFP wins a strategic victory.

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Old June 10 2013, 11:06 PM   #30
Crazyewok
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

Timo wrote: View Post
Well, they still win their wars, plus they know more about their neighborhood than the competition.

There's no need to keep sizeable forces at any location if one can rest assured that one's ships are fast enough to get there before the enemy does. Which depends on the speed of the enemy as much as it depends on the speed of the defender.

The Klingons or the Romulans would probably be quite unable to penetrate to any appreciable depth before the UFP got enough ships together to slow them down, allowing further ships to gather and slow them down further, etc., until finally the attack would grind to a halt. Not so with the superfast Borg, or with enemies like V'Ger or the Whale Probe that cannot be slowed down or stopped by any amount of firepower!

The Dominion did not have a speed advantage that we'd know of. What they did have was a convenient smokescreen to prevent the UFP from witnessing a slow buildup of forces - the chasm between Gamma and Alpha quadrants, only spanned by the wormhole. Thus, the Dominion could spit out alarming numbers of ships to a location close to the UFP in a short time, upsetting any defensive calculations based on speed and numbers alone.

We know that making do with as few ships as possible is a major advantage: building or operating starships in great numbers is a known bottleneck, as we can see from the fact that Starfleet is short on ships even in peacetime and does nothing to improve the situation. So if the Klingons keep "standing fleets" idled close to strategic spots, but the Feds have their ships do useful work in peacetime, the UFP wins a strategic victory.

Timo Saloniemi
It could have easily gone sour though if the Dominion had not given the Feds a few years to prepare. If they had just poured through the Wormhole it would have been game over before the federation could have grouped together.


Plus with Borg out there I would want a fleet of 200 ships at least ready to respond at all times like in first contact. One crew up and the Federation is now the new Alpha quadrent collective
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