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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 8 2013, 12:16 PM   #46
YellowSubmarine
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

teacake wrote: View Post
And YellowSubmarine your second spoiler suggestion was fantastic!
It would have been way more significant than anything else that you could do within the limitations of the film, and it would have fitted in more than wonderfully without violating any written or unwritten canon rule. The more I think about it, the more I like it.
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Old June 8 2013, 12:42 PM   #47
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

It's really so simple. The problem was so easily solved..

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Old June 8 2013, 01:11 PM   #48
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
GMDreia wrote: View Post
I follow a lot of the feminist critique of pop culture and agree with a lot of it but... but but but... I don't feel the Bechdel Test is the end-all be-all. Furthermore, I feel people are overlooking what STID got right because of two things it got wrong (Bechdel test failure, gratuitous lingerie shots).

What it got right that is even progressive by today's standards:

Lt. Darwin - the shaven-headed, powerfully built bridge officer does not conform to the rigid standards of femininity we usually see in the movies. I'd like to see more of her!

Lt. Uhura - is not at any point in the film a "damsel in distress". Is a key part of the crew and her role is indispensable and irreplaceable.

Dr. Marcus - a competent scientist who has no love story at any point in the film, she's there completely for her own reasons. She is never fridged. She becomes a crew member at the end of the film.

The Bechdel test isn't reliable to me because it's too shallow a marker; plenty of films do great on it but fail in other ways.
I guess my issue is that I didn't really get to see any of that happen in this film. You could argue that Uhura being the only one to speak Klingon is one of the things that makes her indispensable, but when she speaks Klingon it really is all for not.

The same kind of goes for Carol's "big moment," to me. She's supposed to be the expert weapons specialist, but when she's trying to
it kind of seemed like she got it right out of luck just as much or more than skill and like it was played for comedic effect a little. So, it kind of fell flat for me.

I just come away with the over all opinion that the women weren't handled well in this film.

YellowSubmarine wrote: View Post
Yeah, applying the Bechdel test to any single film, particularly one whose characters had been selected in the 60s and whose
, is not a fair application of the test. They did put women in nearly half of the commanding positions, and made nearly half of the bridge crew women, so it is not like there was not any attempt to represent women fairly.

Now, if you insist it should have been a more central goal (which makes sense if you see Star Trek as a vehicle for progressive messages of fairness and equality), you could have made
, you could have made Keenser or Gatt's character female, or made the tactical officer from the Kobayashi Maru a black woman in 2009 (or the Kobayashi Maru supervisor).

But if you do, I'd like to point out something: In both films, with the exception of Gatt's character, the only non-main cast that ever spoke on the Enterprise bridge were women. I don't recall a bridge guy ever speaking. Even cupcake shut up once he went up there. The universe in which the film seemed pretty fair and equal to me.

And the film is centred around Kirk, who has a perception of the world that can be described as harmlessly sexist-ish, so you could claim it makes sense for the story to fold around his perception because he does not hang out with his female comrades as much and pays less attention to their actual accomplishments. Not a good excuse, but you can come up with something in-universe to explain the focus on the original crew. Two crew women arguing in the turbolift about the captain's attitude will do for me.

ETA: The turbolift thing is cheesy. Give a crew woman an assignment meant for Chekov after she went to complain to the captain for showing too much favouritism for the kid, even though she was as qualified as him for it, even better, give it to her after Chekov screws it up. Or something along that line, just not written by me.
I do. And it wasn't just a word or two. There's a bald guy in a blue shirt standing at one of the stations that I can swear has a conversation with Spock or someone.

And Chekov. He's been through enough. I kind of felt bad for him in this movie.
Re-read the part you put in bold. "With the exception of GATT" is the bald blue shirted guy. No need for a contradictory statement in this case.
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Old June 8 2013, 01:20 PM   #49
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

^Huh? Yellow said that Gatt is the only male non-main cast member who spoke on the bridge. The sentence seems fine to me.
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Old June 8 2013, 05:21 PM   #50
Locutus of Bored
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Ovation wrote: View Post
Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
YellowSubmarine wrote: View Post
But if you do, I'd like to point out something: In both films, with the exception of Gatt's character, the only non-main cast that ever spoke on the Enterprise bridge were women. I don't recall a bridge guy ever speaking.
I do. And it wasn't just a word or two. There's a bald guy in a blue shirt standing at one of the stations that I can swear has a conversation with Spock or someone.
Re-read the part you put in bold. "With the exception of GATT" is the bald blue shirted guy. No need for a contradictory statement in this case.
Tosk wrote: View Post
^Huh? Yellow said that Gatt is the only male non-main cast member who spoke on the bridge. The sentence seems fine to me.
He's not talking to YellowSubmarine about the contradictory statement. He's talking to Spock/Uhura Fan, who was disagreeing with YellowSubmarine about there being no male non-main characters speaking on the bridge, because she saw a bald guy with a blue shirt speaking. Except that YellowSubmarine had already mentioned the Gatt character (who was the bald guy with blue shirt she was unknowingly referring to) as an exception to his remark about male non-main characters not speaking on the bridge.

Does that clear things up?
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Old June 8 2013, 06:02 PM   #51
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Oh man. Thanks, and sorry to Ovation.
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Old June 8 2013, 07:51 PM   #52
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Ovation wrote: View Post
Re-read the part you put in bold. "With the exception of GATT" is the bald blue shirted guy. No need for a contradictory statement in this case.
Okay, so here's another one. There's the guy who couldn't speak Romulan in the first film. So, there you go.
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Old June 8 2013, 08:54 PM   #53
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Who was replaced by Uhura because she could. Those misogynist writers!
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Old June 8 2013, 08:58 PM   #54
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

And I've said many times that I think the first movie was well-done. I commend them on what they did with that film and I have supported and defended it. This film, however, is a different story for me. I would never say that they are flat-out misogynists, because I don't think that's true. But, they rushed to make the script, and I think when that happened they fell back on some stereotypes for women that one can argue are programmed by traditional roles for women in action movies. Some of those traditions are rooted in sexist or misogynistic views. That is all.
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Old June 8 2013, 09:10 PM   #55
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
And I've said many times that I think the first movie was well-done. I commend them on what they did with that film and I have supported and defended it. This film, however, is a different story for me. I would never say that they are flat-out misogynists, because I don't think that's true. But, they rushed to make the script, and I think when that happened they fell back on some stereotypes for women that one can argue are programmed by traditional roles for women in action movies. Some of those traditions are rooted in sexist or misogynistic views. That is all.
Which stereotypes would that be?
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Old June 8 2013, 09:14 PM   #56
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

beamMe wrote: View Post
Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
And I've said many times that I think the first movie was well-done. I commend them on what they did with that film and I have supported and defended it. This film, however, is a different story for me. I would never say that they are flat-out misogynists, because I don't think that's true. But, they rushed to make the script, and I think when that happened they fell back on some stereotypes for women that one can argue are programmed by traditional roles for women in action movies. Some of those traditions are rooted in sexist or misogynistic views. That is all.
Which stereotypes would that be?
I guess I simply don't notice all this mistreatment of women in movies. I grew up with strong women and continue to have strong women in my life to this day.
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Old June 8 2013, 10:05 PM   #57
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

beamMe wrote: View Post
Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
And I've said many times that I think the first movie was well-done. I commend them on what they did with that film and I have supported and defended it. This film, however, is a different story for me. I would never say that they are flat-out misogynists, because I don't think that's true. But, they rushed to make the script, and I think when that happened they fell back on some stereotypes for women that one can argue are programmed by traditional roles for women in action movies. Some of those traditions are rooted in sexist or misogynistic views. That is all.
Which stereotypes would that be?
Here's the one that I had an issue with:

http://psychcentral.com/news/2010/04/22/female-stereotypes-persist-in-american-films/13047.html

A new study finds that although female characters are displayed as “tougher” and more “violent,” women continue to take a non-dominant role in most films.

[...]

“This research provides evidence that the majority of female action characters shown in American cinema are not images of empowerment; they do not draw upon their femininity as a source of power, and they are not a kind of ‘post-gender woman’ operating outside the boundaries of traditional gender restrictions.


“Instead, they operate inside highly socially constructed gender norms, rely on the strength and guidance of a dominant male action character, and end up re-articulating gender stereotypes.”
For me, the Uhura I saw in the last film was very strong and capable, and she showed that. When she's entering her dorm room talking to her friend about the day that she had, it's about a transmission that she was able to intercept and translate. When a member of Pike's bridge crew wasn't able to perform, she was. All of that was her, and she didn't rely on anyone else for that. Yes, she was in a relationship, but that wasn't the main thing with the character in the 2009 film to me. The relationship was just a part of her life, and she was a successful woman who could stand up for herself when needed.

In STID, her abilities get overshadowed by the men in the film. She speaks Klingon, but nothing comes of it, and then there's a fight where she and her cohorts are saved by the "bad guy." That quickly moves on to a whole thing with him and Kirk, and to me, her "contribution" is easily forgotten.

Then, when she beams down to "help" Spock, who's fighting Khan, again, her contribution falls flat to me. She has to rely on her boyfriend to take the bad guy out because he's more than her phaser can handle.

I've seen where some people here have no issues with any of this and they think it all worked just fine. For me, it didn't.

------

Getting to the topic of the thread, though, did we decide if STID passed or failed the Beschdel Test or no? I don't remember 2 women having much of any kind of conversation in the film, but I only saw it once.
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Old June 8 2013, 10:10 PM   #58
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

whether or not something passes this test has no relevance to whether it's a good film. i mean sex and the city 2 passes the test and that's deplorable garbage.
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Old June 8 2013, 10:13 PM   #59
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
He's talking to Spock/Uhura Fan, who was disagreeing with YellowSubmarine about there being no male non-main characters speaking on the bridge, because she saw a bald guy with a blue shirt speaking. Except that YellowSubmarine had already mentioned the Gatt character (who was the bald guy with blue shirt she was unknowingly referring to) as an exception to his remark about male non-main characters not speaking on the bridge.

Does that clear things up?
His character name is listed as "Science Officer 0718". Previously publicized as GATT5000 and GATT5000. Played by Joseph Gatt.
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Old June 8 2013, 10:38 PM   #60
Locutus of Bored
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
He's talking to Spock/Uhura Fan, who was disagreeing with YellowSubmarine about there being no male non-main characters speaking on the bridge, because she saw a bald guy with a blue shirt speaking. Except that YellowSubmarine had already mentioned the Gatt character (who was the bald guy with blue shirt she was unknowingly referring to) as an exception to his remark about male non-main characters not speaking on the bridge.

Does that clear things up?
His character name is listed as "Science Officer 0718". Previously publicized as GATT5000 and GATT5000. Played by Joseph Gatt.
Yes, I'm aware of that. I was describing what they said.

This has been a clarification of the clarification of the clarification of the clarification. We've gone fractal.
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