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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old June 8 2013, 07:04 PM   #46
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Which Star Trek movie has got the most plot holes? And the least?

Belz... wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
TMP has a HUGE plot hole. A near-god-like living machine, which can digitize entire worlds and star systems and created a near-perfect android duplicate of Illia, never thought to wipe the muck off it's name plate?
Why would it ?
Well, evidently, it was using the Ilia Probe as a text-to-speech synthesizer, to vocalize the letters it sees on itself. But why would it do that? How would it even know that the marks on its surface were letters to be read in the first place, much less that those letters would designate its own name?

Knowing that there are letters designating a name, and knowing what the muck was, which it's hardly a stretch to assume (certainly Ilia would have known), one would know that maybe there was something to see by wiping the muck off. V'Ger was programmed to learn all that could be learned, so it would have realized the possibility of there being something to see under the muck, which the Ilia Probe would also be able to vocalize.

I'm totally with King Daniel Into Darkness on this one. I noticed it on first viewing.
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Old June 8 2013, 07:10 PM   #47
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Re: Which Star Trek movie has got the most plot holes? And the least?

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
TMP has a HUGE plot hole. A near-god-like living machine, which can digitize entire worlds and star systems and created a near-perfect android duplicate of Illia, never thought to wipe the muck off it's name plate?
Why would it ?
Well, evidently, it was using the Ilia Probe as a text-to-speech synthesizer, to vocalize the letters it sees on itself. But why would it do that? How would it even know that the marks on its surface were letters to be read in the first place, much less that those letters would designate its own name?

Knowing that there are letters designating a name, and knowing what the muck was, which it's hardly a stretch to assume, you would know that maybe there was something to see by wiping the muck off. V'Ger was programmed to learn all that could be learned, so it would have realized the possibility of there being something to see under the muck, which the Ilia Probe would also be able to vocalize.

I'm totally with King Daniel Into Darkness on this one. I noticed it on first viewing.
Wasn't V'Ger damaged when the alien machine planet found it? It must have reconstructed the programming from what was left, and not knowing any better, taking every found detail literally.

If all the aliens saw was V___GER, and the probe couldn't tell them any different, why wouldn't they assume that was the probe's name?
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Old June 8 2013, 07:31 PM   #48
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Re: Which Star Trek movie has got the most plot holes? And the least?

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Wasn't V'Ger damaged when the alien machine planet found it? It must have reconstructed the programming from what was left, and not knowing any better, taking every found detail literally.

If all the aliens saw was V___GER, and the probe couldn't tell them any different, why wouldn't they assume that was the probe's name?
The same questions get asked of those alien machines on the machine planet, then.

How would they even know that the marks on the probe's surface were letters to be read in the first place, much less that those letters would designate its name?

How is it that they happened to read the letters in the proper order, with the proper orientation?

If you can get all that right, then why don't you wonder about the ridiculously huge spacing between the V and the G, inappropriate for that font, and the muck on the surface in that space?
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Old June 8 2013, 07:38 PM   #49
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Re: Which Star Trek movie has got the most plot holes? And the least?

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Carcazoid wrote: View Post
Wasn't V'Ger damaged when the alien machine planet found it? It must have reconstructed the programming from what was left, and not knowing any better, taking every found detail literally.

If all the aliens saw was V___GER, and the probe couldn't tell them any different, why wouldn't they assume that was the probe's name?
The same questions get asked of those alien machines on the machine planet, then.

How would they even know that the marks on the probe's surface were letters to be read in the first place, much less that those letters would designate its name?

How is it that they happened to read the letters in the proper order, with the proper orientation?

If you can get all that right, then why don't you wonder about the ridiculously huge spacing between the V and the G, inappropriate for that font, and the muck on the surface in that space?
You'd have to ask those machines about that. They're the ones who repaired V'Ger and improved it to complete its mission.

Do you need every plot point spelled out? Do you have no imagination that can fill in the spaces?

A movie that explained everything would be hours, days, weeks long, and would be incredibly boring. Who would sit still for that?

Seriously, I'm making a list.
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Old June 8 2013, 08:12 PM   #50
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Re: Which Star Trek movie has got the most plot holes? And the least?

[QUOTE=CorporalCaptain;8219776]
Belz... wrote: View Post
I'm totally with King Daniel Into Darkness on this one. I noticed it on first viewing.

IIRC there's a... strongly worded Harlen Ellison quote where he points this out as well.


Not that he's biased against Gene.


I think the mark of a good film isn't necessarily that it doesn't have plot holes, but that it makes you not care (or even try to handwave them).
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Old June 8 2013, 08:55 PM   #51
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Re: Which Star Trek movie has got the most plot holes? And the least?

Carcazoid wrote: View Post
Real life is full of plot holes.
Those aren't plot holes: they're holes in your knowledge. Reality is perfectly consistent.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Knowing that there are letters designating a name, and knowing what the muck was, which it's hardly a stretch to assume (certainly Ilia would have known), one would know that maybe there was something to see by wiping the muck off.
Or maybe V'Ger, like me, doesn't give a hoot about it. Seriously, it's near-omnipotent. Why should it really mind ? This part of the plot really bothers you ? I mean, now that you guys mentioned it, you made me realise that I don't care about it, and that's all.
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Old June 8 2013, 08:56 PM   #52
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Re: Which Star Trek movie has got the most plot holes? And the least?

I'd love to read what Harlan Ellison said.

The issue could have been more convincingly dealt with, if V'Ger had referred to itself in translation in more generic terms, such as as "The Seeker". But, no, they had to go for the low-brow, in a film which otherwise clearly had high-brow aspirations.

And, Jesus, it's not like this makes me hate the film, or that it "bothers" me. This thread isn't about what "bothers" me, or what I hate about the films. TMP's among my favorite Trek films, for Pete's sake. I might've even watched it a hundred times, by now!
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Old June 8 2013, 09:20 PM   #53
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Re: Which Star Trek movie has got the most plot holes? And the least?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
TMP has a HUGE plot hole. A near-god-like living machine, which can digitize entire worlds and star systems and created a near-perfect android duplicate of Illia, never thought to wipe the muck off it's name plate?
What if chose not to because it didn't want to know? To wipe the muck away and reveal its full name would be to acknowledge that it was once just a lowly space probe and not born a sentient being endowed with a sacred mission from its creator. It turns what was divine into the mundane from its perspective. Sure, it's just deluding itself and being petulant, but like Spock said, that was essentially what V'Ger was, a child. Even with all the remarkable things it could do, it still asked questions like "Is this all that I am?" Just like many humans do, it wants to think of itself as unique and special; the child of a higher being, not a simple machine built by unworthy carbon units.
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Old June 8 2013, 09:35 PM   #54
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Re: Which Star Trek movie has got the most plot holes? And the least?

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
TMP has a HUGE plot hole. A near-god-like living machine, which can digitize entire worlds and star systems and created a near-perfect android duplicate of Illia, never thought to wipe the muck off it's name plate?
What if chose not to because it didn't want to know? To wipe the muck away and reveal its full name would be to acknowledge that it was once just a lowly space probe and not born a sentient being endowed with a sacred mission from its creator. It turns what was divine into the mundane from its perspective. Sure, it's just deluding itself and being petulant, but like Spock said, that was essentially what V'Ger was, a child. Even with all the remarkable things it could do, it still asked questions like "Is this all that I am?" Just like many humans do, it wants to think of itself as unique and special; the child of a higher being, not a simple machine built by unworthy carbon units.
In that case, the probe wouldn't have been following it's programming to learn all it could.

Of course, maybe V'Ger did know, but was simply testing the creator. Unfortunately, that idea's really contrary to everything we saw. There's no evidence that V'Ger knew, or suspected, until Kirk wiped off the grit.
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Old June 8 2013, 10:03 PM   #55
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Re: Which Star Trek movie has got the most plot holes? And the least?

I'm going through the TOS films at the minute. Just finished Search for Spock actually.

In TWOK only thing that got me was Chekov mentioning the things in the ear and McCoy totally ignoring it.

However, SFS has quite a few. Not the Excelsior stuttering to a halt. The fact it's engine's conking out sound like a real world car is pretty stupid, but the physic, well the films seem to treat spaceships like planes - except for the 3D thinking (which is perfectly for to me) - with slow turning angles etc, so I'll excuse that one.

However, the Enterprise arriving at the Genesis Planet, sees no ships because the Klingon Bird of Prey was cloaked. What about the Grissom's wreckage? That'd have been a nice little nod to have Kirk on edge, which wouldn't have hurt.

Then there's a few technology ones, Kruge teleports up while the ship is cloaked, photon torpedoes seem to act more like Star Wars Ion cannons than the destructive power of photons we've seen everywhere else. Enterprise's self destruct acts like explosives are ringing the ship, which is a rather terrible design decision. Surely it'd just be warp core exploding. But the engine's are completely intact. It's the saucer section that explodes.
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Old June 8 2013, 10:03 PM   #56
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Re: Which Star Trek movie has got the most plot holes? And the least?

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
TMP has a HUGE plot hole. A near-god-like living machine, which can digitize entire worlds and star systems and created a near-perfect android duplicate of Illia, never thought to wipe the muck off it's name plate?
What if chose not to because it didn't want to know? To wipe the muck away and reveal its full name would be to acknowledge that it was once just a lowly space probe and not born a sentient being endowed with a sacred mission from its creator. It turns what was divine into the mundane from its perspective. Sure, it's just deluding itself and being petulant, but like Spock said, that was essentially what V'Ger was, a child. Even with all the remarkable things it could do, it still asked questions like "Is this all that I am?" Just like many humans do, it wants to think of itself as unique and special; the child of a higher being, not a simple machine built by unworthy carbon units.
In that case, the probe wouldn't have been following it's programming to learn all it could.
That was my point about it deluding itself and not acknowledging its true origins, though. Somewhere, it's aware of what it truly is but won't admit it to itself, which is why it doesn't clean the muck away. It's living in a state of denial, and cleaning the nameplate would mean acceptance of its humble beginnings.

V'ger cut the communications cable when it was supposed to receive the signal to return its knowledge to the creator, because it wanted to bring the creator to join with it, so it's not as if it doesn't occasionally stray from its programming to suit its own needs.
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Old June 8 2013, 10:27 PM   #57
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Re: Which Star Trek movie has got the most plot holes? And the least?

There's also a very clear point made by McCoy and/or Spock about V'Ger having the emotional competence of a child, despite all the knowledge it had accumulated.
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Old June 8 2013, 10:39 PM   #58
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Re: Which Star Trek movie has got the most plot holes? And the least?

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
And, Jesus, it's not like this makes me hate the film, or that it "bothers" me. This thread isn't about what "bothers" me, or what I hate about the films. TMP's among my favorite Trek films, for Pete's sake. I might've even watched it a hundred times, by now!
Well 1) it seems to bother you and 2) it wasn't my intention to evoke such a strong reaction from you.
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Old June 8 2013, 10:42 PM   #59
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Re: Which Star Trek movie has got the most plot holes? And the least?

NightJim wrote: View Post
Enterprise's self destruct acts like explosives are ringing the ship, which is a rather terrible design decision. Surely it'd just be warp core exploding. But the engine's are completely intact. It's the saucer section that explodes.
It's my impression that it's explosive, not a warp core breach like the one mentioned in TMP's director's edition. So yeah, it would kinda look like that.
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Old June 8 2013, 10:50 PM   #60
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Re: Which Star Trek movie has got the most plot holes? And the least?

most: Generations
least: TMP
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