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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old June 8 2013, 01:50 AM   #46
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

The average Christian is in no way a 'Bible thumper', but Pat Robertson surely is.

They only represent about 10% of Christians in America, but they're out there, protesting at gay funerals, giving large sums of money to pass laws to persecute any form of behavior they disagree with, and doing everything up to holding their breath to keep evolution and sex education out of school textbooks.

And it's ridiculous for normal Christians to have to answer for them, but you must understand that people who grew up in America not believing in God faced a whole lot of judgment and hatred from that 10% who will insist as if common knowledge that anybody who doesn't get their morality from God is inherently selfish and depraved.

There's being tolerant and then there's tolerating hateful, destructive behavior that negatively impacts peoples' freedom and security. Just know that you are in no way the target when people use the term 'Bible thumper', and you probably dislike the people who are the targets as much as we do.
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Old June 8 2013, 02:05 AM   #47
Praetor Baldric
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

Isn't it possible that the references to religion in the various TOS episodes mentioned above were put there simply as small devices to help the audience relate a little more to this futuristic universe?
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Old June 8 2013, 02:49 AM   #48
The Cubed Ho
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
Whoever told you that indiscriminate tolerance is the highest of values?
Gandhi and King.
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Old June 8 2013, 03:35 AM   #49
Zameaze
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

foxhot wrote: View Post
Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
Whoever told you that indiscriminate tolerance is the highest of values?
Gandhi and King.
King wanted acceptance his race. Gandhi wanted independence for his country. They both had a personal investment in their endeavors. Indiscriminate tolerance was no where in sight.
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Old June 8 2013, 03:40 AM   #50
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

foxhot wrote: View Post
Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
Whoever told you that indiscriminate tolerance is the highest of values?
Gandhi and King.


No.

Neither of them believed or taught that.
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Old June 8 2013, 07:01 AM   #51
prizzm
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

Big Daddy wrote: View Post
Isn't it possible that the references to religion in the various TOS episodes mentioned above were put there simply as small devices to help the audience relate a little more to this futuristic universe?
Of course that's possible. It seems to me, though, there's a little bit more to it. The Original Series has always struck me as having a sort of split personality regarding spiritual ideas. The Enterprise characters were very rational, and they expressed no overt religious beliefs.

There was the recurring theme of Kirk's rejection of paradise/supreme being (This Side of Paradise, The Return of the Archons, The Apple). Kirk was adamant in his view that people weren't meant to live an easy life, to stagnate under the influence of a higher power, no matter how benign. They were meant to struggle, to strive for improvement.

Meant by whom? Seems to me that Kirk believed in some sort of innate purpose for sentient beings, and that he thought he knew what that purpose was.
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Old June 8 2013, 08:02 AM   #52
Praetor Baldric
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

prizzm wrote: View Post
Big Daddy wrote: View Post
Isn't it possible that the references to religion in the various TOS episodes mentioned above were put there simply as small devices to help the audience relate a little more to this futuristic universe?
Of course that's possible. It seems to me, though, there's a little bit more to it. The Original Series has always struck me as having a sort of split personality regarding spiritual ideas. The Enterprise characters were very rational, and they expressed no overt religious beliefs.

There was the recurring theme of Kirk's rejection of paradise/supreme being (This Side of Paradise, The Return of the Archons, The Apple). Kirk was adamant in his view that people weren't meant to live an easy life, to stagnate under the influence of a higher power, no matter how benign. They were meant to struggle, to strive for improvement.

Meant by whom? Seems to me that Kirk believed in some sort of innate purpose for sentient beings, and that he thought he knew what that purpose was.
So, if you have religious beliefs you are irrational and you will stagnate and never improve? Also, Kirk is an atheist? I think you may be reading into this a little bit too much.
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Old June 8 2013, 09:34 AM   #53
ZapBrannigan
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

I don't mean to introduce controversy to this thread, but when Kirk and Uhura start talking about "the Son," the music score plays a gorgeous riff on the Captain's theme.

As a Star Trek music enthusiast, I stand ready to debate anyone who disagrees.
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Old June 8 2013, 12:31 PM   #54
Merry Stripmas
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

T'Bonz wrote: View Post
That's rather offensive, Dennis. It's pretty damned sad when Christians are all lumped together with the extremists in what is a very large diverse group.

To me, as a Christian, being called a "Bible thumper" is a pejorative, along the lines of calling a Moslem the "R" word or a Jew the "K" word.

None of these designations should be acceptable, even if the three groups involved have elements in them that are undesirable at times to others (and even to those in said groups, if truth be told).

Even if one disagrees with another person's religious leanings (or lack thereof), it's only common decency to avoid stereotyping.
Thank you, T'Bonz. I was beginning to think I was the only Christian on this forum.
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Old June 8 2013, 01:13 PM   #55
stj
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

The role of the Christianity referenced in Bread and Circuses has to read in context.

The "Romans" in Bread and Circuses are us (US us,) complete with TV car commercials. And the episode says their empire is morally wrong. The Christians are there to appropriate the more or less compulsory approbation for Christianity on behalf of a critique of contemporary society. The supposed reveal at the end is just a shaggy god gosh, wow, cool moment. Like so many cool things it is actually kind of stupid, but there you are. My experience in life suggests that this kind of moral ju-jitsu never really works.

Historically "God" and even "Providence" have stood in for nature. You have to judge these things from context. Sorry a dictionary can't substitute for reading.

And, no, it is not an accident that Kirk never met a God figure he didn't reject. He's no Sisko.
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Old June 8 2013, 01:21 PM   #56
Greg Cox
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

stj wrote: View Post

And, no, it is not an accident that Kirk never met a God figure he didn't reject. He's no Sisko.
I actually had fun with this in a recent novel, where Kirk is mildly chagrined to discover that his reputation as a "God-Slayer" precedes him . . . .
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Old June 8 2013, 01:40 PM   #57
BillJ
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
stj wrote: View Post

And, no, it is not an accident that Kirk never met a God figure he didn't reject. He's no Sisko.
I actually had fun with this in a recent novel, where Kirk is mildly chagrined to discover that his reputation as a "God-Slayer" precedes him . . . .
The Weight of Worlds was definitely an entertaining read.
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Old June 8 2013, 01:56 PM   #58
mos6507
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
The christening seems to be Roddenberry being like many "seekers" of faith in the 60s and 70s--meaning, he seemed to believe in God at the time, but he was unclear as to the means to reach God, hence the invitation to many, rather than one...
It sounds kind of Uniterian Universalist to me.
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Old June 8 2013, 03:58 PM   #59
Zameaze
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
I don't mean to introduce controversy to this thread, but when Kirk and Uhura start talking about "the Son," the music score plays a gorgeous riff on the Captain's theme.

As a Star Trek music enthusiast, I stand ready to debate anyone who disagrees.
Well, don't leave us hanging, tell us what you think it means.
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Old June 8 2013, 05:37 PM   #60
Shawnster
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
The christening seems to be Roddenberry being like many "seekers" of faith in the 60s and 70s--meaning, he seemed to believe in God at the time, but he was unclear as to the means to reach God, hence the invitation to many, rather than one...

...by now, you can guess where this is going: Roddenberry's invite seems like it was inspired (to some degree) by his own IDIC concept, so, out of some respect for the different religious bodies (or said bodies he acknowledged), he thought a diversity of faith stood the chance of getting junior into heaven.
Add to all of this that GR and Majel were married in a traditional Buddhist-Shinto ceremony. If Roddernberry was of a mind to reject ALL religion back in that time, I think he would have found a more secular marriage ceremony. The fact that GR chose a Buddhist-Shinto ceremony seems to me that he was exploring and embracing all religions as part of his on IDIC. He found a non-Christian wedding ceremony that he liked and he chose it. (Well, I keep talking like Majel had no input.)

So, in the late 60s and early 70s GR gets married in a Buddhist-Shinto ceremony and has his son Christened by representatives from several religions.

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Sounds like GR was having a bit of fun at the christening.
If GR was what Braga tried to hammer, the idea of GR having anything to do with religon--joke or not--around such an important moment with his son--does not hold even a drop of water.
I see what you did there
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