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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old June 7 2013, 08:41 PM   #31
mb22
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

On Roddenberry's future Earth, everyone is an atheist
Does that include every starbase, outpost, colony etc. as well? Are terrans really that impervious to being swayed by the beliefs of other planetary cultures? The current beliefs of our cultures will obviously change in a Trek future, but the above statement seems more wishful thinking than anything else.
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Old June 7 2013, 08:50 PM   #32
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

Yes, but Star Trek itself is simply an extended exercise in wishful thinking.
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Old June 7 2013, 09:22 PM   #33
AtoZ
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
Uh-uh. Sorry, but one person here used the phrase "appeasing the bible thumpers" in passing while discussing GR's genuflection toward belief in a 1960s TV show, and AtoZ chose to inaccurately describe that as "among a few of the responses." There's no basis in what Zameaze or I posted for deciding that anyone was "lumping all Christians together" with the "extremists," nor any excuse for AtoZ being victimy about it.

"Bible thumper" is most commonly defined as someone who is aggressive in imposing Christianity on others or uses biblical literalism to attack and condemn people. You know what? I don't like bible thumpers. I have no patience with the several who approach me on the street to proselytize, as they frequently do in the commercial downtown blocks of my neighborhood. You can call that a slam on "all Christians" if you like, but it's not. It is, however, the truth.

TREK_GOD_1 is entirely wrong, BTW, in suggesting that Braga misrepresented Roddenberry's expressed opinions about religion during the time that they would have worked together on TNG. GR was not at all shy about expressing his complete disdain for all forms of religious belief and practice during that period of his life. Trying to drag the "Braga is suspect" meme into this discussion is a non-starter.
Admiral, I stand corrected.

....and I do understand your view.

As for "AtoZ being victimy about it".....Admiral, you may wish to rethink that assumption. How can you possibly know if I felt that way?
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Old June 7 2013, 09:22 PM   #34
Greg Cox
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

It's probably worth noting that Star Trek isn't just the work of a single individual. Given that the various episodes have been written, directed, acted, and produced by numerous individuals, of diverse beliefs, it's unrealistic to expect to find one single, immutable approach to religion throughout.

And reasonable people can interpret things differently. I once took part in a very cordial public debate on this very topic, opposite some sort of minister or clergyman who was also a devout Trekkie. I argued that the "Star Trek was an essentially secular vision of the future, but the other guy (whose name and denomination sadly escapes me) had no trouble finding evidence of Christian messages and values in STAR TREK.

Hey, if it works for him . . . cool.
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Old June 7 2013, 09:37 PM   #35
AtoZ
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
AtoZ wrote: View Post
"Bible thumpers" was among a few of the responses on this thread. Interesting label that says much. Does tolerance only apply to some and not to others?
Whoever told you that indiscriminate tolerance is the highest of values?

As far as political ideologies or philosophies are concerned, I know of none that explicitly elevate tolerance of ignorance to a virtue.

I'm not talking about IDIC, but about ideologies that actually exist and matter.
I found the remark curious. I have read of tolerance on this site as it applies to opinion and various episodes. It struck me as as curious remark given what I have read over time. Beyond that, nobody ever told me, nor would I be given to accepting, that tolerance was the highest of values.

Admiral, it seems that my one little point of interest has bothered you. Please do not take it for any more than it was meant to be. I get that you are opinionated, confident and smart...and all of that. In fact I respect it, along with your well taken points.

So enjoy the ride.

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Old June 7 2013, 09:42 PM   #36
marksound
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

Regardless of GR's views on religion, and certain members' alignment with those views, T'Bonz was right. Some members may not see things the same way, and a little respect is in order.
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Old June 7 2013, 10:47 PM   #37
BillJ
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

Shatnertage wrote: View Post

Does it bother you that he's bothered? That bothers me.
I'm about as far from religious as you can get, but I don't need Star Trek to reinforce my beliefs. I know it's a great big world/universe and there are going to be lots of people with differing viewpoints on life.
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Old June 7 2013, 11:22 PM   #38
TREK_GOD_1
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post

TREK_GOD_1 is entirely wrong, BTW, in suggesting that Braga misrepresented Roddenberry's expressed opinions about religion during the time that they would have worked together on TNG. GR was not at all shy about expressing his complete disdain for all forms of religious belief and practice during that period of his life. Trying to drag the "Braga is suspect" meme into this discussion is a non-starter.
You are the one entirely wrong, as Braga's comment was included the TOS period, which is woefully incorrect. Try reading the posted quote again:

"In Gene Roddenberry's imagining of the future [...] religion is completely gone. Not a single human being on Earth believes in any of the nonsense that has plagued our civilization for thousands of years. This was an important part of Roddenberry's mythology. He, himself, was a secular humanist and made it well-known to writers of Star Trek and Star Trek: The Next Generation that religion and superstition and mystical thinking were not to be part of his universe. On Roddenberry's future Earth, everyone is an atheist. And that world is the better for it.”
Braga tossed his own ideological net on the TOS period of GR's life, and could not be more out in left field. From the episodes discussed in this thread, to Lou Scheimer's own firsthand account of GR's interest/faith at his son's christening (years after TOS), Braga's agenda attempted to make a sweeping reboot of Roddenberry's history to suit his own bias.

The chain of behavior in a man's history cannot be tossed aside in favor of fantasy.
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Old June 7 2013, 11:43 PM   #39
Nerys Myk
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

Sounds like GR was having a bit of fun at the christening.
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Old June 8 2013, 12:00 AM   #40
iguana_tonante
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

Yeah. Nothing says "devout" as assembling a power party of clerics to boost your offspring into celestial blessing.
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Old June 8 2013, 12:15 AM   #41
Praetor Baldric
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

The Beatles are bigger than Jesus, but Kirk is bigger than The Beatles. 'Nuff said.
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Old June 8 2013, 12:26 AM   #42
iguana_tonante
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

Well, Shatner is, that's for sure.
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Old June 8 2013, 01:23 AM   #43
TREK_GOD_1
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Sounds like GR was having a bit of fun at the christening.
Scheimer does not suggest that, and as noted in the book, he was around Roddenberry long enough to know the man. That said, if the christening was intended to be a joke, the historically blunt Scheimer would not hesitate to point that out.

The christening seems to be Roddenberry being like many "seekers" of faith in the 60s and 70s--meaning, he seemed to believe in God at the time, but he was unclear as to the means to reach God, hence the invitation to many, rather than one...

...by now, you can guess where this is going: Roddenberry's invite seems like it was inspired (to some degree) by his own IDIC concept, so, out of some respect for the different religious bodies (or said bodies he acknowledged), he thought a diversity of faith stood the chance of getting junior into heaven.

If GR was what Braga tried to hammer, the idea of GR having anything to do with religon--joke or not--around such an important moment with his son--does not hold even a drop of water.
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Old June 8 2013, 01:31 AM   #44
J. Allen
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

Shatnertage wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
TOSalltheway wrote: View Post
Speaking as an athiest myself it always bothers me when I hear M5 saying that "murder is contrary to the laws of man and god".
It bothers you that someone thinks differently than you do? M-5 essentially had Daystrom's personality.
Does it bother you that he's bothered? That bothers me.

But seriously, as someone who doesn't even remotely believe in the divinity of Jesus, the Son worship of "Bread and Circuses" doesn't bother me at all. It's just the product of what the creators believed in/thought the audience wanted to see. If Turkish Star Trek had an episode where Uhura pontificated about there being one true God and one true messenger of said God, that wouldn't bother me either, even though it doesn't reflect my own convictions.

I don't need Trek as my personal philosophical echo chamber. I need it to entertain me.
Bingo. Yahtzee. Scrabble. This exactly.
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Old June 8 2013, 01:37 AM   #45
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Re: Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

J. Allen wrote: View Post
Shatnertage wrote: View Post
I don't need Trek as my personal philosophical echo chamber. I need it to entertain me.
Bingo. Yahtzee. Scrabble. This exactly.
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