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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old June 7 2013, 04:51 AM   #31
JD
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Re: Charting the Novel-verse's Discontinuities

CaffeineAddict wrote: View Post
Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
JD wrote: View Post
I've stopped counting NF in these kinds of situations. There are so many things like that that I've started thinking of NF taking place in a separate universe that is very similar to the one in the novelverse.
There's a TV trope for this called, "Broad Strokes" where there's a bunch of stuff in something that is important and should be considered canonical but not every detail is. Which I think fits NF to a t.

In my headcanon, Mac Calhoun and his adventures occur but this is all some bar-story and only the rough events occur with a lot heavily exaggerated.



Others may view NF as absolutely canon and everyone else who makes the mistakes.
As a longtime New Frontier fan, I tend to view NF as my "prime continuity" - after all, NF has had an internally consistent continuity since 97, way before the other trek lines.

I know some readers find the plots far-fetched, but I don't think there's anything in there more outlandish than TOS. IIRC, in one novel some admirals express the opinion that Calhoun's adventures can't be real, and when its pointed out that Kirk reported far wilder things, they say they think Kirk falsified his reports as well.

I don't find NF particularly irreconcilable though - the major sticking points I've seen people mention are the timeline of Blind Mans Bluff, and Necheyev.

To me, it seems clear that BMB occurs after Before Dishonour, but before Destiny (post-destiny seems to be the popular theory). After all, if it was post-destiny, the people seven talks to who say about her "being there when the borg ate pluto" would surely have forgotten that in favour of "the borg that just killed billions across the federation"? I think the bit about her implants being gone is just sloppy editing, so if thats ignored, there isn't a continuity problem to me.

It seems clear to me that Nechayev in BMB wasn't the "real" one, and that she was probably a captive somewhere. I'd be willing to bet if a follow up NF novel had been written, it would have resolved this by finding the "real" nechayev, so that she was back in place for the rest of the novelverse.
I don't remember exactly what brought them about, but I was already starting to feel that way about NF before BMB came out.
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Old June 7 2013, 10:31 AM   #32
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Re: Charting the Novel-verse's Discontinuities

I think NF needs a broad strokes approach, a hand wave and a couple of minor retcons sorting out Nechayev etc., then to be folded properly into the novelverse...
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Old June 7 2013, 11:06 AM   #33
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Re: Charting the Novel-verse's Discontinuities

If you're gonna include everything, then the Romulan Commander from "The Enterprise Incident" had a pretty spectacular life. Disgraced and killed, gets better and becomes the secret Praetor, goes back to being an officer and keeps a pet Kirk clone for awhile, keeps changing her name...

A Romulan Commander life story, including every Trek lit appearence in chronological order, would be an interesting read, to say the least!
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Old June 7 2013, 09:16 PM   #34
Charles Phipps
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Re: Charting the Novel-verse's Discontinuities

CaffeineAddict wrote: View Post
As a longtime New Frontier fan, I tend to view NF as my "prime continuity" - after all, NF has had an internally consistent continuity since 97, way before the other trek lines.

I know some readers find the plots far-fetched, but I don't think there's anything in there more outlandish than TOS. IIRC, in one novel some admirals express the opinion that Calhoun's adventures can't be real, and when its pointed out that Kirk reported far wilder things, they say they think Kirk falsified his reports as well.
Oh, I don't mind the oddities of the stuff that happen in NF. I think the plotlines are a bit comic bookey and sometimes feel like Peter David is writing the Star Trek future of the Marvel universe versus the Star Trek future of the Star Trek future (Jean Grey should merge with the Great Bird of the Galaxy is all I'm saying) but I accept Gangster Planet, Nazi Planet, and all other manner of silliness from the six series.

The only reason I say it's Broad Strokes in my head is more the fact the crew's professional behavior is so utterly and completely skewed. It makes for great and entertaining reading but I have difficulty buying them as Starfleet officers sometimes.

I wouldn't be a Novelverse fan if not for NF, though.

JD wrote: View Post
I don't remember exactly what brought them about, but I was already starting to feel that way about NF before BMB came out.
On a personal note, I love New Frontier but it saddens me to no end that "Blind Man's Bluff" is the seeming end of NF both for contractual and personal reasons. It's such a....depressing place to end the series.

Then again, I'm a Xyon/Kallinda fan.

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Old June 8 2013, 11:16 PM   #35
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Re: Charting the Novel-verse's Discontinuities

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
If you're gonna include everything, then the Romulan Commander from "The Enterprise Incident" had a pretty spectacular life. Disgraced and killed, gets better and becomes the secret Praetor, goes back to being an officer and keeps a pet Kirk clone for awhile, keeps changing her name...

A Romulan Commander life story, including every Trek lit appearence in chronological order, would be an interesting read, to say the least!
Not to mention how Kirk and crew somehow manage to use time travel quite a bit, without having the DTI jumping down their throats, in order to do all the adventures that they are on, between the TV shows and the novels.
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Old June 9 2013, 12:00 AM   #36
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Re: Charting the Novel-verse's Discontinuities

Charles Phipps wrote: View Post

JD wrote: View Post
I don't remember exactly what brought them about, but I was already starting to feel that way about NF before BMB came out.
On a personal note, I love New Frontier but it saddens me to no end that "Blind Man's Bluff" is the seeming end of NF both for contractual and personal reasons. It's such a....depressing place to end the series.

Then again, I'm a Xyon/Kallinda fan.

Yeah, despite everything I've said, I am still an NF fan and I would love to get one last book to tie everything up in a nice little bow. I really think the series deserves that much at least since it is pretty much responsible for the existence of most of the Trek Lit we get today. If the series hadn't been a success we probably wouldn't have gotten any more series not set during one of the series.
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Old June 9 2013, 12:43 PM   #37
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Re: Charting the Novel-verse's Discontinuities

JD wrote: View Post
Charles Phipps wrote: View Post

JD wrote: View Post
I don't remember exactly what brought them about, but I was already starting to feel that way about NF before BMB came out.
On a personal note, I love New Frontier but it saddens me to no end that "Blind Man's Bluff" is the seeming end of NF both for contractual and personal reasons. It's such a....depressing place to end the series.

Then again, I'm a Xyon/Kallinda fan.

Yeah, despite everything I've said, I am still an NF fan and I would love to get one last book to tie everything up in a nice little bow. I really think the series deserves that much at least since it is pretty much responsible for the existence of most of the Trek Lit we get today. If the series hadn't been a success we probably wouldn't have gotten any more series not set during one of the series.
I agree - leaving the series at the end of Blind Mans Bluff would be a tragic end to a great series. If they don't want to have a dedicated NF novel, maybe they could include the characters in one of the crossovers to tie things up.
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Old June 11 2013, 09:14 PM   #38
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Re: Charting the Novel-verse's Discontinuities

Was the Excalibur in Destiny or just mentioned? I remember it being in Before Dishonor as well.
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Old June 11 2013, 11:06 PM   #39
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Re: Charting the Novel-verse's Discontinuities

^ Just mentioned, not actively shown.
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Old August 4 2013, 11:22 AM   #40
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Re: Charting the Novel-verse's Discontinuities

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^ Just mentioned, not actively shown.
Has a Trek novel since Destiny discussed the Excalibur's role against the Borg? If I remember correctly, they pulled off something major and saved many lives, but for the life of me I can't remember what or if it was chronicled in another book.
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Old August 4 2013, 11:47 AM   #41
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Re: Charting the Novel-verse's Discontinuities

they utilised phased torpedoes to destroy a Cube IIRC.
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Old August 4 2013, 12:06 PM   #42
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Re: Charting the Novel-verse's Discontinuities

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I've found that different people disagree on what's reconcilable and what isn't.
Agreed. In my personal continuity, I have no problems with the Kirk on Excelsior and Spock on Surak comics set between ST3 and ST4, although many dismiss them as incompatable.
I find the first run of DC Comics very awkward to reconcile with the rest of Trek, I must admit. The first couple of issues had the Enterprise return to Earth immediately after the incident with Khan, and Kirk get demoted to captain, but he's suddenly an admiral again in TSFS. Then there's the character of Konom, a renegade Klingon who joins Starfleet, whereas televised canon dictates that as of the 24th century, Worf is the only Klingon to have ever served on a Federation starship.

Things only get trickier in the comics set between TSFS and TVH. For one thing, there's the fact that the Excelsior is portrayed as being huge enough for Kruge's bird-of-prey to fit inside its shuttle bay. And why was it left in there so long anyway?
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Old August 4 2013, 12:27 PM   #43
F. King Daniel
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Re: Charting the Novel-verse's Discontinuities

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
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As for Marla, we have no clue how she died. If it was brain bugs, I doubt healing blood would cure madness - if anything (as we may see in STXIII), it'd cause it.
Actually, Khan does say that it was the Ceti eel which killed McGivers ("it killed twenty of my people...including my beloved wife"). And if he had used his blood to treat her, it might have caused her body to expel or kill the eel as a foreign substance.
Or perhaps created a Khan-blood-powered Super Eel!

But seriously, I think under the best of circumstances it might have left Khan with a physically healthy but mentally severely impaired or insane wife.

Noddy wrote: View Post
Turtletrekker wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
I've found that different people disagree on what's reconcilable and what isn't.
Agreed. In my personal continuity, I have no problems with the Kirk on Excelsior and Spock on Surak comics set between ST3 and ST4, although many dismiss them as incompatable.
I find the first run of DC Comics very awkward to reconcile with the rest of Trek, I must admit. The first couple of issues had the Enterprise return to Earth immediately after the incident with Khan, and Kirk get demoted to captain, but he's suddenly an admiral again in TSFS. Then there's the character of Konom, a renegade Klingon who joins Starfleet, whereas televised canon dictates that as of the 24th century, Worf is the only Klingon to have ever served on a Federation starship.
I think the first can be reconciled by saying Kirk held the rank of Admiral but had the position of captain. Admiral Pike in Into Darkness would appear to have been about to do the same thing.

As for Konom, we was an enlisted crewman. Worf was the first Klingon officer in Starfleet. That's my fudge for it, anyway.[/quote]
Things only get trickier in the comics set between TSFS and TVH. For one thing, there's the fact that the Excelsior is portrayed as being huge enough for Kruge's bird-of-prey to fit inside its shuttle bay. And why was it left in there so long anyway?[/QUOTE]
The Excelsior's an odd case in that the model was detailed to indicate a ship much larger than it's supposed size of 467m. But even at it's apparent "real" size of 622m (which would give deck heights on par with an NX-class vessel) and the smallest possible Klingon Bird of Prey size of about 50m, they don't fit.

But then again, Neelix's ship somehow fitted inside Voyager...
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Old August 4 2013, 12:49 PM   #44
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Re: Charting the Novel-verse's Discontinuities

^No, Konom was granted honorary ensign's rank, so he was an officer.
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Old August 4 2013, 12:54 PM   #45
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Re: Charting the Novel-verse's Discontinuities

Ah, my mistake. It's been ages since I read them.

(and how the hell did I reply to MLB's post in the nuKhan comic thread here? Kill me now.)
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