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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 6 2013, 11:29 PM   #16
solariabsg25
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Re: My thoughts on and gripes with Star Trek Into Darkness

Hey, it's great to have discussions - I'm sorry you were disappointed with the movie, but if we all liked the same things be a boring world wouldn't it?

Going back to point 16 - I think Khan really had no plan at all to keep any bargain with Kirk, he was simply going along with my "oh, woe is me" sob story until it was time to act. I suspect his superior intellect allowed him to realise he hadn't completely swayed Kirk to his side, so he was ready for Kirk's move.

The fact that, thanks to Admiral Marcus, Khan was actually the aggrieved party helped his story along, but as to his turning at the end, I think that Khan really couldn't be anything else. He was conditioned during the Eugenics War, whether by his own desires or by design, to rule.

Khan in this movie is one of the best villains in Trek as he isn't a maniacal madman, he is at all points, up until he believes his comrades have actually been killed, in complete and total control. His manipulation of Kirk from the moment they have their discussion in the brig is testimony to this. And this harks back to his appearance in Space Seed, rather than TWOK when his brilliance is clouded by the losses he suffered over the years and his rage and thirst for vengeance.
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Old June 6 2013, 11:53 PM   #17
KittyDuran
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Re: My thoughts on and gripes with Star Trek Into Darkness

T'Ryl wrote: View Post
gabby_j wrote: View Post
Something I agree with you on:

Carol Marcus

No matter what anyone says, her most memorable scene was stripping. Everything else probably could have been handled by others. If you think about it, Spock could have probably disarmed the torpedo.
Agreed...that entire strip scene did nothing for me but to upset me, and not because of the stripping.

I get Christine Chapel was not a very well liked character, heck, Majel didn't even like her. But one thing the Chapel I watched for years never would have done was jump ship because things went south with her love life or plans. She confessed to Spock she loved him, even while engaged to Roger Korby. Spent the next 3 years clearly hung up on the Vulcan. So I find it hard to believe that she would have left, just like that. Now, Carol assumes Kirk has no clue who she is talking about but the look on his face, when she is not looking says otherwise. I like to think, perhaps, Roger as out in that frontier and for once the girl walked away from Kirk.
Nero changed all of that...
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Old June 7 2013, 12:05 AM   #18
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Re: My thoughts on and gripes with Star Trek Into Darkness

I didn't find the movie the least bit complicated or convoluted. I mean I followed it as it was happening and it all made sense on the surface. That is what a good story does. Real life stories are usually flawlessly told, but they are also boring 99% of the time, that is why we enjoy the fake stuff.

Take any good or even great movie or TV show and look at it with a critical eye and you are going to poke giant holes in any story.

Star Trek itself is absolutely riddled with plot holes, inconsistent history, and bad science. I mean I guess its fun to discuss them from time to time because there is literally nothing else do with such big gaps between productions but I'd rather see someone not complain about a Star Trek movie for doing things done in other incarnations of Star Trek on a regular basis while still talking about how great those movies are.

I would say a criticism of acting and pace, and cgi is fine. But more often than not I am seeing a ton of complaints about things other Trek's have been doing for 50 years.
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Old June 7 2013, 12:19 AM   #19
Flake
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Re: My thoughts on and gripes with Star Trek Into Darkness

Jesus H Christ!

I had my issues with this movie and I have posted about them however I will get over it when my TNG-era brain wiring self-destructs....

But I do wonder how you have watched Star Trek all these years and not noticed that 97% of episodes have similar plot holes and inconsistencies. I do admit that STID is one of the worst offenders but there is a good movie buried in there - you just need to brush aside some Trekkie junk in your brain to see it.
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Old June 7 2013, 12:34 AM   #20
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Re: My thoughts on and gripes with Star Trek Into Darkness

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Wow, I don't even have the time to read all of this. Let alone write it.

The plot sounds pretty convoluted to me. They wanted to make something dark and dense and special, but it turned out to be just contrived and unneccessary.
Wait, you didn't even watch it ?
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Old June 7 2013, 12:47 AM   #21
Hober Mallow
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Re: My thoughts on and gripes with Star Trek Into Darkness

DaleC76 wrote: View Post
I hate it when people dismiss flaws in a film by saying "the other films/series had them too", but sadly, it's the truth. "Hollywood" is not going to get everything right, and there will always be things we as fans have to, if not accept, then overlook.
But the thing is... we don't have to overlook or accept them.
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Old June 7 2013, 04:40 AM   #22
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Re: My thoughts on and gripes with Star Trek Into Darkness

Belz... wrote: View Post
Well, sorry, but if it's stated in the movie, you don't need to look anywhere else.
If Khan says that Marcus's mission is X, but what is demonstrated on screen doesn't support that and I ask "what is Marcus' plan?", do you still insist that it is X?

Belz... wrote: View Post
Name one thing that wouldn't have been accomplished without ANY of the characters, save Spock, Kirk, Scotty and Marcus ? You could literally have three people on the Enterprise and everything would have happened the same way.
I have to disagree. I haven't studied every significant role in the movie, but even when a character like Chekhov doesn't get particularly Chekhov-appropriate tasks to do, he still ran engineering and fixed the warp drive and saved Kirk and Scotty. Removing Chekhov from the movie would require someone else to be promoted to chief engineer. For Carol, literally everything she does would have been achieved without her character being there.

solariabsg25:

About Khan and item 16, you may be right. If I watched the movie again, maybe I would pick up a little more that Khan is biding his time and planning. I didn't get that the first watch. I did enjoy Cumberbatch's performance and I did think that he was the aggrieved party, which is why I thought for a moment he would convince Kirk to go after the worse bad guy. It worked that way a little bit, and in the end maybe Kirk's betrayal of Khan on the Vengeance's bridge destroyed any chance of Khan saving his men and accepting punishment, but overall Khan seemed to me to be so enraged that all that came through was a desire to destroy everything. I guess I just expected a little more depth to the character/plotting, and didn't feel like I got it. I wouldn't mind rewatching just Khan and seeing if there are elements I missed, I just wish I didn't have to work through all the rest of it to see it.

Flake:

Of course other Star Trek episodes have demonstrated these issues but mostly individually or in small groups, and of course I have noticed them, but I think something of what I am trying to indicate here is how STID piles all of the nitpicks on top of the plot holes on top of the nonsensical plotting, on top of the poor characterizations, on top of the too-rapid pace, on top of ... everything else. If I have to dig through all of these things to find the supposedly "good" movie hiding underneath, I don't think there is much of a movie left that can be considered good.
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Old June 7 2013, 09:35 AM   #23
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Re: My thoughts on and gripes with Star Trek Into Darkness

Using Khan is a retread.

Check.

Using Mitchell is not.

Chec-





The Kelvin 2233: Have we ever seen the Star Fleet uniforms, phaser pistols, tricorders, etc from that era?

. . . .

I thought not.

If something is not explained, it is not a Plot Hole. tm

Yet another "JJ Abrams Sucks!" thread
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Old June 7 2013, 10:32 AM   #24
Belz...
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Re: My thoughts on and gripes with Star Trek Into Darkness

Ometiklan wrote: View Post
If Khan says that Marcus's mission is X, but what is demonstrated on screen doesn't support that and I ask "what is Marcus' plan?", do you still insist that it is X?
In what way does the screen stuff not support X ?

I have to disagree. I haven't studied every significant role in the movie, but even when a character like Chekhov doesn't get particularly Chekhov-appropriate tasks to do, he still ran engineering and fixed the warp drive and saved Kirk and Scotty. Removing Chekhov from the movie would require someone else to be promoted to chief engineer.
He did dick all. Automated repair function could have replaced him.
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Old June 7 2013, 11:45 AM   #25
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Re: My thoughts on and gripes with Star Trek Into Darkness

My god.
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Old June 7 2013, 11:48 AM   #26
F. King Daniel
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Re: My thoughts on and gripes with Star Trek Into Darkness

teacake wrote: View Post
My god.
It's full of stars...
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Old June 7 2013, 12:02 PM   #27
Opus
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Re: My thoughts on and gripes with Star Trek Into Darkness

Wow. That's quite an OP.

I loved this movie. The plot was fine. The pacing was fast. The characters were rich. There was growth in Spock and Kirk. It's fresh and new because we are now in the Alt. Universe and everything's up for grabs. The nuSpock has an interesting story arc. And, most importantly, it's a damn fun movie.

These are 'The Good 'Ole Days'.
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Old June 7 2013, 12:44 PM   #28
Belz...
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Re: My thoughts on and gripes with Star Trek Into Darkness

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
My god.
It's full of stars...
Dammit, I was going to say that.
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Old June 7 2013, 03:16 PM   #29
Ovation
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Re: My thoughts on and gripes with Star Trek Into Darkness

solariabsg25 wrote: View Post

Going back to point 16 - I think Khan really had no plan at all to keep any bargain with Kirk, he was simply going along with my "oh, woe is me" sob story until it was time to act. I suspect his superior intellect allowed him to realise he hadn't completely swayed Kirk to his side, so he was ready for Kirk's move.
Just saw it again last night. I viewed it this way the first time. Second viewing makes it even clearer.

The fact that, thanks to Admiral Marcus, Khan was actually the aggrieved party helped his story along, but as to his turning at the end, I think that Khan really couldn't be anything else. He was conditioned during the Eugenics War, whether by his own desires or by design, to rule.
Pretty much.

Khan in this movie is one of the best villains in Trek as he isn't a maniacal madman, he is at all points, up until he believes his comrades have actually been killed, in complete and total control. His manipulation of Kirk from the moment they have their discussion in the brig is testimony to this. And this harks back to his appearance in Space Seed, rather than TWOK when his brilliance is clouded by the losses he suffered over the years and his rage and thirst for vengeance.
Well said.

Cinema Geekly wrote: View Post
I didn't find the movie the least bit complicated or convoluted. I mean I followed it as it was happening and it all made sense on the surface. That is what a good story does. Real life stories are usually flawlessly told, but they are also boring 99% of the time, that is why we enjoy the fake stuff.

Take any good or even great movie or TV show and look at it with a critical eye and you are going to poke giant holes in any story.

Star Trek itself is absolutely riddled with plot holes, inconsistent history, and bad science. I mean I guess its fun to discuss them from time to time because there is literally nothing else do with such big gaps between productions but I'd rather see someone not complain about a Star Trek movie for doing things done in other incarnations of Star Trek on a regular basis while still talking about how great those movies are.

I would say a criticism of acting and pace, and cgi is fine. But more often than not I am seeing a ton of complaints about things other Trek's have been doing for 50 years.
Also well said.
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Old June 7 2013, 04:03 PM   #30
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Re: My thoughts on and gripes with Star Trek Into Darkness

The coordinate system - really?
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