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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old May 31 2013, 09:52 PM   #271
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Re: Klingons in STID--why do they look like [SPOILERS]?

Clearly, these errors in STVI mean the franchise has failed and Star Trek is ruined.
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Old May 31 2013, 09:53 PM   #272
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Re: Klingons in STID--why do they look like [SPOILERS]?

I blame Laurence Luckinbill and his laugh.
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Old May 31 2013, 10:29 PM   #273
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Re: Klingons in STID--why do they look like [SPOILERS]?

Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
I liked this movie so much I really don't care whether they're consistent with much of the previous timeline or visual continuity at all. Let these guys do what they want as long as they stay entertaining.
After reading that I imagined that scene in First Contact where Captain Picard screams: NO! NOOOOOO! and smashes the model ships in the conference room....
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Old May 31 2013, 10:39 PM   #274
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Re: Klingons in STID--why do they look like [SPOILERS]?

[Trek super nerd] Archer's Enterprise from the prequel show has never been in the model displays on Picard's ships! Canon Violation! [/super nerd]

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Old May 31 2013, 10:41 PM   #275
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Re: Klingons in STID--why do they look like [SPOILERS]?



Ugh.

I love that I'm a nerd, but I hate that there are nerds.
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Old June 1 2013, 12:07 AM   #276
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Re: Klingons in STID--why do they look like [SPOILERS]?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
The actor playing him was European. So he must be European.
No. Or is this one of those outdated practices from the 1960s that we like, as opposed to the ones we don't like?

Using "classical" racial classifications
And why exactly would we be using discredited classifications?

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That's why nuKhan is European, right?
Actually, he only looks European because Section 31 made him look that way for some inscrutable purpose.

One of these things is not like the others.
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Old June 1 2013, 12:26 AM   #277
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Re: Klingons in STID--why do they look like [SPOILERS]?

Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
I find it's a lot less complicated to accept that the "Uhura don't know Klingon" gag was one of the dumber things ever concocted in the history of Trek and simply forget it ever happened. Actually, that works nicely for most of TUC.
Damn straight.
Nice to see that I'm not the only one who doesn't put TUC on a pedestal.
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Old June 1 2013, 01:40 AM   #278
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Re: Klingons in STID--why do they look like [SPOILERS]?

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
The actor playing him was European. So he must be European.
No. Or is this one of those outdated practices from the 1960s that we like, as opposed to the ones we don't like?

Using "classical" racial classifications
And why exactly would we be using discredited classifications?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
That's why nuKhan is European, right?
Actually, he only looks European because Section 31 made him look that way for some inscrutable purpose.

One of these things is not like the others.
Truth be told, I would have preferred that an Indian actor played Khan, if that character was going to be used. My main objection to your original comment was the use of the term "Caucasian" to describe Khan's race ( and term race in general), when it applies equally to Montalban, Cumberbatch and any hypothetical Indian actor. Then I watched as goalposts were moved and words were defined. The point that Cumberbatch isn't an Indian could have been stated without using either term, as I just did.

Yes, the writers used a dose of Handwavium to make Khan look like Cumberbatch. Cumberbatch is a great actor, so it might be a good trade off.


Though I do find the nebulous standards of "spot on casting" to be curious. "Europeans" and "Africans" tend to be one size fits all, but others require an exact match.
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Old June 6 2013, 08:31 PM   #279
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Re: Klingons in STID--why do they look like [SPOILERS]?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
My main objection to your original comment was the use of the term "Caucasian" to describe Khan's race
But I didn't use any such term in my original comment. You objected to the mere suggestion that Khan's race was changed, pressing for the relevance of an "outdated" ( and discredited ) classification.

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
The point that Cumberbatch isn't an Indian could have been stated
I did. I just didn't know that using the word "race" somehow negated that point. And how could you possibly know just by looking at him that Cumberbatch isn't an Indian, if the term Indian connotes nothing more than a nationality?
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Old June 6 2013, 10:24 PM   #280
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Re: Klingons in STID--why do they look like [SPOILERS]?

Firstly, as Khan is a product of genetic engineering, he needn't belong to any one particular naturally-occurring race (or even combination thereof) at all. McGivers was only "guessing" (her own words in the episode) at his origins in "Space Seed." And moreover, Montalban was neither Indian nor Sikh, illustrating readily that the race of the actor playing a role needn't be taken as a direct indication of the race of the character himself. (John Cho and Linda Park aren't Japanese, either.)

Secondly, we could easily regard any discrepancy among Khan's appearances in TOS, TWOK, and the new film as being no more significant than that of any other character who's been played by more than one actor, including Saavik, T'Pau, Braxton, Pike, and many others. In other words, not significant at all, because it's not an "in-universe" difference, merely an effect of recasting the role, an aesthetic choice on the part of the people behind the camera, which we of course notice on our end, but which will not be acknowledged by the characters and which we are intended to look past.
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Last edited by The Mighty Monkey of Mim; June 6 2013 at 10:39 PM.
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Old June 6 2013, 11:55 PM   #281
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Re: Klingons in STID--why do they look like [SPOILERS]?

And, like I've said, if that reasoning doesn't work for somebody, one can always say that Admiral Marcus and Section 31 forced Khan to undergo cosmetic surgery to change his appearance - just in case some nosey know-it-all who's familiar with old Earth history would happen to recognize Khan Noonien Singh of the Eugenics Wars running around in modern times and start to pry and ask questions that nobody wanted to answer.

Either way, there's a reasonable explanation.
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Old June 7 2013, 12:08 AM   #282
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Re: Klingons in STID--why do they look like [SPOILERS]?

Just because Harrison said he was Khan, that don't necessarily make it so.

Did Old Spock see him? Anyone else who would have recognized him? Was there enough time in the thick of things for anyone to look up his file?

I haven't seen the movie yet. Just asking.
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Old June 7 2013, 12:54 AM   #283
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Re: Klingons in STID--why do they look like [SPOILERS]?

Although I didn't personally care for the movie, I did like Cumberbatch as Khan.
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Old June 7 2013, 03:07 AM   #284
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Re: Klingons in STID--why do they look like [SPOILERS]?

The Mighty Monkey of Mim wrote: View Post
(John Cho and Linda Park aren't Japanese, either.)
The Sulu question was already addressed here; "Sulu" isn't a Japanese name and was taken from the Sulu Sea in a bid to give the character a Pan-Asian flavor.

Furthermore, we know Takei gave his personal blessing to the recasting after being approached by Abrams. In other words, changing the ethnicity of the actor wasn't taken lightly by the creative team. But that was then. This time around, things seem to have been a little more loosey-goosey.
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Old June 7 2013, 05:48 AM   #285
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Re: Klingons in STID--why do they look like [SPOILERS]?

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
My main objection to your original comment was the use of the term "Caucasian" to describe Khan's race
But I didn't use any such term in my original comment. You objected to the mere suggestion that Khan's race was changed, pressing for the relevance of an "outdated" ( and discredited ) classification.
You claimed Cumberbatch wasn't the same race as Khan. Which would be wrong. You then claimed "Indian" was a race. Also wrong. Then you tried to differentiate Caucasian and Caucasoid. There is no difference. What you did get right was some people use Caucasian as a synonym for White European ( usually from the Northwest). India is a country with many ethnic groups, languages and religions.(Including Indians of British descent) Khan could be a combination of those or just one. Or not from India at all.

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
The point that Cumberbatch isn't an Indian could have been stated
I did. I just didn't know that using the word "race" somehow negated that point. And how could you possibly know just by looking at him that Cumberbatch isn't an Indian, if the term Indian connotes nothing more than a nationality?
Because its incorrect. You're the one claiming Cumberbatch isn't of the Indian "race". I can't tell Cumberbatch's nationality by looking at him, because nationality isn't based on appearance. Since I know something about his backgroud, I know he's not an Indian national. Of course John/Khan isn't Benedict Cumberbatch, so Cumberbatch's nationality isn't relevant.

Am I being pedantic and semantic about the terms "race" and
"Caucasian"? Maybe just a little.
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