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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old June 6 2013, 09:27 PM   #1
bbjeg
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Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

During the Kazon battle, Chakotay crashes his ship into the Kazon battleship, which then collides with the already weaken caretaker causing it's death. He totally let her take the blame. How does he put it, you're the captain?
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Old June 6 2013, 09:39 PM   #2
Vulcan Logician
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

The Kazon would have destroyed them all unless Chakotay had rammed them. So the choice was between certain death, and being stranded. "It's nobody's fault!"

Last edited by Vulcan Logician; June 7 2013 at 05:21 AM.
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Old June 6 2013, 10:54 PM   #3
Anwar
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

The Array was never an option to go home anyways. Being brought there killed a lot of people and damaged the ship, going back would've done the same.

The real problem was that the writers themselves forgot this and started blaming her for it.
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Old June 6 2013, 11:42 PM   #4
Guy Gardener
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

Anwar wrote: View Post
The Array was never an option to go home anyways. Being brought there killed a lot of people and damaged the ship, going back would've done the same.

The real problem was that the writers themselves forgot this and started blaming her for it.
You are wrong and I have spent hours telling you that you are wrong. If you persist in continuing to be wrong I will go tattle on you to a moderator for being monumentally ignorant.

Janeway begged Caretaker to send them home so STFU about the Array not being an option and see reason.

Seriously HOURS of my life has been spent attempting to educate on this and YOU WILL NOT LEARN!

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Old June 6 2013, 11:49 PM   #5
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

Anwar wrote: View Post
The Array was never an option to go home anyways. Being brought there killed a lot of people and damaged the ship, going back would've done the same.

The real problem was that the writers themselves forgot this and started blaming her for it.
As opposed to say a 70 year journey. During which time the ship could be damaged and crew lost. They should have run under the assumption that they wouldn't have found any shortcuts.

Seriously only one child born on the ship, and she was conceived prior to them being lost.
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Old June 6 2013, 11:58 PM   #6
R. Star
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

If the array was never an option, why did Janeway ask the Caretaker to send them back? Why did she order Tuvok to figure out how to use the array? Why did he then report he had done so.

Even after the ship crashed into it, the only part of the array that was damaged was the self-destruct. In Janeway's own words she had a choice. Use the Array to get home and let the Kazon have it, or destroy it to save the Ocampa.... who they left behind to the mercies of the Kazon anyways.

I guess Janeway never heard of explosives with timers. It wasn't as if there was a time crunch. As pissed off as the Kazon were("you have made an enemy today") they left after their flagship was destroyed instead of attacking the weakened Voyager in retaliation.
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Old June 7 2013, 12:08 AM   #7
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

The Caretaker was an option to send them back, they just didn't know how to use it. They could have probably figured out how.

What I don't get is why they didn't just use it to get home, then leave a bomb behind that would go off right after they left.

I think most of the Maquis, while they were ticked off because it was a unilaterally made decision, didn't disagree with the decision too much. Voyager tended to write the Maquis as a bunch of former thugs and pirates who beat each other up to solve disputes, so you tend to forget they weren't that at all. The Maquis of DS9 would insist on not letting the Kazon enslave the Ocampa.
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Old June 7 2013, 12:10 AM   #8
R. Star
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

TUVOK: Captain, I can access the system to send us back to Federation space, but it will take several hours to activate.
As I mentioned before... there was no time crunch. As things played out the Kazon were already in retreat regardless of what Janeway did to the Array. As pissed off as Jabin was, if he had the ability he would've attacked again there instead of making an idle threat. So Janeway really didn't -have- to destroy the Array.

A line of dialogue about the Kazon boarding the Array would've forced the crisis instead of making Janeway look dumb for just wanting to blow it up.
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Old June 7 2013, 12:20 AM   #9
propita
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

I would think the Maquis would understand Janeway's actions the most--that Janeway (unlike StarFleet and the Federation) was unwilling to throw innocent civilians under the bus for the sake of politics and/or convenience.

This would have been the reason that there wasn't huge amounts of fighting between the crews. But it was never stated. It should have been stated--a discussion overheard in the mess hall or a debate between Harry and B'Elanna where Harry says words to the effect, "So you'd rather she have done exactly what you joined the Maquis about? We should save ourselves and let them all die?", leaving B'Elanna and others thinking. Something could have been said, which would have covered the why-they-got-along-so-fast.

Instead, TPTB made Janeway a guilt-ridden emotional extremist.
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Old June 7 2013, 12:25 AM   #10
R. Star
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

^
Good point. Standing up for the "little people" that the great powers were brushing aside was part of what the Maquis was about. Though this would've required the writing staff to address the issue of the Maquis instead of them just being fully assimilated into Starfleet. It would've been nice to see the two different schools of thought more often.

I'm not saying the Maquis should be rebelling at every opportunity, but they should be advocating less than perfect or Starfleet methods... Prime Factors was a solitary good example of this. Regardless, I think asking them to put on the Starfleet uniform is a bit much to ask a lot of them though, given how hard Starfleet is going after them. Join the crew, sure.. help us, sure.. but join the organization that thinks you're a criminal for fighting for your home?

Heck if you want to get technical, interfering with the Ocampa at all is a Prime Directive violation. If the Kazon threaten to wipe them out it's okay... but if a natural disaster happens, well they're screwed. Gotta love that morality.
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Old June 7 2013, 12:26 AM   #11
AllStarEntprise
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

Yes it was Janeway's fault. She got carried away with the poetry of doing something noble and forsook her mission directives, and all common sense when she destroyed the array.

Given how easily starships blow up in Star Trek. It's hard to sympathize with Janeway over her illogical decision.
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Old June 7 2013, 01:32 AM   #12
Anwar
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

Look, even if the Array was an option (the writers apparently forgot how it nearly killed them in the first place) it would've still taken them hours to get it to work and in those hours Kazon reinforcements would've gotten there and likely defeated them by then.

Assuming the Array wouldn't kill them, it was a "Stay and likely die, or blow it up now and run" option. A timed bomb wouldn't work because by the time they got the Array working they'd already have been under heavy attack for a while by then.

And it's not a PD violation because the Caretaker involved them in this against their will. They weren't interfering willingly, they were forced into the situation.

Folks just want to blame Janeway for everything at every chance they get.
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Old June 7 2013, 01:37 AM   #13
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Folks just want to blame Janeway for everything at every chance they get.
Not me.
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Old June 7 2013, 02:01 AM   #14
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

Protecting one defenseless group against another isn't really a violation of the prime directive. I mean, Starfleet says it is when it's politically inconvenient to intervene, but when the deed is done or when they really want to they turn the other way.
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Old June 7 2013, 02:29 AM   #15
R. Star
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Look, even if the Array was an option (the writers apparently forgot how it nearly killed them in the first place) it would've still taken them hours to get it to work and in those hours Kazon reinforcements would've gotten there and likely defeated them by then.

Assuming the Array wouldn't kill them, it was a "Stay and likely die, or blow it up now and run" option. A timed bomb wouldn't work because by the time they got the Array working they'd already have been under heavy attack for a while by then.

And it's not a PD violation because the Caretaker involved them in this against their will. They weren't interfering willingly, they were forced into the situation.

Folks just want to blame Janeway for everything at every chance they get.
No.. if there were reinforcements close at hand Jabin would've continued attacking instead of just sending a message that "you have made an enemy today" and running off. All he had left was that one smaller vessel. So there was no "stay or die" dilemma and no time pressure at all. The Kazon had already been beaten by the point Janeway destroyed the array.

Any danger to the Voyager crew could be prepared for in those hours while Tuvok's setting up the Array. Like maybe not jumping across the bridge right as a shock wave is gonna hit you like Cavitt did... or some experimental technology called seat belts. The casualties occurred mainly because they were surprised and not ready for that sudden jolt.

Your comment about people "wanting to blame Janeway for everything" seems just a testament to being closed minded and unwilling to consider other viewpoints. Heck if you go back and read one of my earlier posts I blamed it on poor writing that Janeway looked dumb. Just have Jabin board the Array and declare he'll let them go home if they stand down. Then Janeway back make the "hard choice" that was so obviously intended.

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Protecting one defenseless group against another isn't really a violation of the prime directive. I mean, Starfleet says it is when it's politically inconvenient to intervene, but when the deed is done or when they really want to they turn the other way.
The Federation let Cardassia rape Bajor when they could have intervened. They didn't even help the Bajorans when they were having an armed conflict with Cardassia at the same time of the Occupation because of the Prime Directive.
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