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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 6 2013, 06:33 AM   #16
-Brett-
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Passing the Bechdel test doesn't make a movie good or feminist friendly, failing it doesn't make it bad, or misogynist. It's a curiosity at most.

The audience voted with their wallets. They wanted the original cast. Mostly dudes. Women are few and in supporting roles only. If they had a problem with that, they should have supported the spin-offs.
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Old June 6 2013, 06:41 AM   #17
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Devon wrote: View Post
1. It has to have at least two [named] women in it
2. Who talk to each other
3. About something besides a man
The Wrath of Khan...

Saavik & Uhura.

2. Fails, so automatically so does 3.
Actually, Saavik and Uhura talk to each other in the very first scene of the movie. And not about a man.
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Old June 6 2013, 07:44 AM   #18
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

The fact that people here immediately conflate "villainess" with "seductress" shows exactly why there's merit in topics like this. The assumption is women will use their "wiles" to get what they want, that even as antagonists they're going to use sex to get what they want as opposed to all the ways a male character would.

I was bothered in both films by the fact that Uhura is defined primarily in terms of her being Spock's girlfriend and he she reacts to his suffering and needs. I'm happy to see the character being given more to do and annoyed that it's doing something so tired and expected.
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Old June 6 2013, 01:14 PM   #19
Malaika
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Spock had always been defined primarily in terms of him being the nerdy friend of hero (same goes for McCoy), and yet he should be a protagonist as much as Kirk is. hell, you even have Spock prime telling him that Kirk would "define" him. But I don't see people complaining about Spock and McCoy getting reduced to nothing more than the best friends of hero.
-------

Uhura and Carol have a tiny interaction, actually.
When Kirk and Scotty take Carol to sickbay, Uhura is there trying to help her and whispers something to her (maybe she was trying to comfort her)
tiny but it's there.
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Old June 6 2013, 02:01 PM   #20
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

teacake wrote: View Post
The only people integral to the story are Kirk and Spock. Everything else is just fluffy stuff window dressing for Kirk and Spock. That includes Bone's bitching about things, Uhura kissing Spock, Marcus undoing torpedoes, Scotty faffing about..

It's Kirk and Spock vs their Enemy. And probably will be next movie.
This. And it has been true since the beginning (with TOS). I see no reason whatsoever that the filmmakers, whomever they might be, should be under any obligation to do anything differently. If they want to, fine. Even better if it actually works as entertainment. But as an obligation? No.

Commercial entertainment is under no obligation to conform to any particular set of characteristics that self-appointed guardians of "the way things ought to be" have deemed necessary. Such entertainment should only try to meet those expectations if it is an organic element of the thing (movie, TV programme, song, painting, sculpture…etc.) they are producing. People are free, of course, to voice their disappointment if the result doesn't meet their expectations. They have no right, however, to expect satisfaction.

And failing to meet any of those arbitrary sets of standards does not automatically mean that the entertainers hate/don't understand whatever cause they "failed" to properly reflect in their work in a manner sufficient to please the "guardians". That is a specious assumption and does little to advance the cause in question.
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Old June 6 2013, 02:18 PM   #21
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

teacake wrote: View Post
The only people integral to the story are Kirk and Spock. Everything else is just fluffy stuff window dressing for Kirk and Spock. That includes Bone's bitching about things, Uhura kissing Spock, Marcus undoing torpedoes, Scotty faffing about..

It's Kirk and Spock vs their Enemy. And probably will be next movie.
Yup.

TOS was never a so-called "ensemble show," and there's no reason that the new producers would turn it into one now.
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Old June 6 2013, 02:42 PM   #22
mos6507
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Ovation wrote: View Post
This. And it has been true since the beginning (with TOS).
Wrong. The role of the ship's doctor in Trek has traditionally been that of the confidant, all the way back to The Cage. Kirk often has heart-to-heart talks with McCoy, like the one in Khan where McCoy tells Kirk to get his command back before he really does get old. Spock can not provide that same sort of worldly advice because he can not relate as closely to human wants and needs. There's an understanding there between Bones and Kirk that is unique to them. I think pop culture's sense of the importance Bones has eroded a great deal because DeForest Kelley avoided the limelight and he was the first of the main cast to die, whereas Nimoy and Shatner have remained ubiquitous and continue to riff on their roles.

McCoy's role was supplanted by Pike in JJ Trek, where Pike acted like the surrogate father. Maybe this was because they retconned McCoy to be about the same age as Kirk when he was older than Kirk in TOS. So apparently when the timeline split, McCoy magically got born later than in Prime continuity.
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Old June 6 2013, 02:52 PM   #23
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

McCoy's age was changed during the run of TOS, to make him a contemporary of Kirk rather than a mentor-figure as Boyce and Piper were. "Encounter at Farpoint" canonized McCoy's age as 137 in 2364, putting his birth year in 2227 (Kirk was born six years later, in 2233)
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Old June 6 2013, 03:07 PM   #24
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

I don't give a flying f*ck about the Bechdel test. I just want an entertaining movie.
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Old June 6 2013, 03:27 PM   #25
Ovation
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

mos6507 wrote: View Post
Ovation wrote: View Post
This. And it has been true since the beginning (with TOS).
Wrong. The role of the ship's doctor in Trek has traditionally been that of the confidant, all the way back to The Cage. Kirk often has heart-to-heart talks with McCoy, like the one in Khan where McCoy tells Kirk to get his command back before he really does get old. Spock can not provide that same sort of worldly advice because he can not relate as closely to human wants and needs. There's an understanding there between Bones and Kirk that is unique to them. I think pop culture's sense of the importance Bones has eroded a great deal because DeForest Kelley avoided the limelight and he was the first of the main cast to die, whereas Nimoy and Shatner have remained ubiquitous and continue to riff on their roles.

McCoy's role was supplanted by Pike in JJ Trek, where Pike acted like the surrogate father. Maybe this was because they retconned McCoy to be about the same age as Kirk when he was older than Kirk in TOS. So apparently when the timeline split, McCoy magically got born later than in Prime continuity.
Still a secondary role compared to Kirk and Spock. An important one, but not equal to the others. So, the Kirk and Spock show. And McCoy was no older in TOS, relative to Kirk, than he is in the Abrams' films (nothing suggests more than half a decade or so difference between them in either case).
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Old June 6 2013, 04:04 PM   #26
KittyDuran
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
For those not familiar with this test developed by cartoonist Allison Bechdel, here's an explanation:

1. It has to have at least two [named] women in it
2. Who talk to each other
3. About something besides a man
Star Trek Into Darkness only passed 1 of the 3 tests, and was panned by many of the ladies who use the site that the test is featured at:

Reicheru said:
Two named female characters: Uhura and Dr. Marcus. They are very occassionally on screen together but do not interact in any way. No women share any dialogue or interaction at any point in the film.
Message posted on 2013-05-09 22:13:53

AJ said:
Very disappointing! They also add a very contrived, pointless and, frankly, just damn awkward getting-the-new-female-character-into-her-underwear scene.. I assume for the benefit of the trailer.
Message posted on 2013-05-10 01:12:51

rasputintx said:
Not gonna lie - I thoroughly enjoyed this movie. But *wow* does it ever fail this test! The only time you have two female characters talk to each other is when the naked twin alien women Kirk is in bed with ask each other if he's really going to leave them to answer his phone. Total fail!
Star Trek Into DarknessBechdel test
IIRC, Uhura and Marcus don't exactly talk to each other... but when Scotty and Kirk bring Marcus to sickbay, Uhura is there and I believe she's the one that says (as her and nurse take a hold of Marcus) "Dr. Marcus". I could be wrong (might have to see it again!).
Too bad as Carol was transporting and running towards the airlock doors of the bridge she didn't say something to Uhura right before she disappeared. Or at the end of movie (it looks as though she is around the same area as Uhura's communications section)...
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Old June 6 2013, 04:13 PM   #27
Ryan8bit
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Ovation wrote: View Post
Still a secondary role compared to Kirk and Spock. An important one, but not equal to the others.
I'd say that McCoy was as secondary to Spock as Spock was secondary to Kirk. And I'd probably say just the same of Scotty being secondary to McCoy.

Anyways, yeah, I don't know if I care so much about the Bechdel test. I'm just more interested in seeing the women be more involved in things, and I thought Uhura had a decent amount to do. I'd love to see more like Chapel or Rand, but the cast is already a bit too big already. You probably couldn't have those without sacrificing Chekov or Sulu.
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Old June 6 2013, 07:15 PM   #28
JarodRussell
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

It is extremely funny that Star Trek: Insurrection passes the Bechdel test by having:
1. Crusher and Troi
2. talk to each other
3. about their boobs getting firm.


Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
Maybe Uhura and Marcus get to work together in the next film. It'd be great if they got to "save the day" in some real way in addition to the boys.

I know, I know, I dare to hope...
You can bet all your vital organs that Uhura will be bitching about Spock and Marcus will be bitching about Kirk in all scenes they share together. While they are in underwear or in extremely tight clothes of course.
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Old June 6 2013, 09:23 PM   #29
Shaka Zulu
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
Maybe Uhura and Marcus get to work together in the next film. It'd be great if they got to "save the day" in some real way in addition to the boys.

I know, I know, I dare to hope...
teacake wrote: View Post
I want a hot woman villain. If she turns out to be the Romulan Commander from The Enterprise Incident so much the better.

Which man will she seduce away from duty this time? Shall we reverse engineer it again and make it Kirk?
Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
I want a hot woman villain. If she turns out to be the Romulan Commander from The Enterprise Incident so much the better.

Which man will she seduce away from duty this time? Shall we reverse engineer it again and make it Kirk?
Hmm, a Romulan evil seductress. That doesn't sound too bad.
Speaking as a man, a woman villain MIGHT be good, but I want to see a movie that deals with exploring and encountering the unknown instead, like The Motion Picture, or as I mentioned before the novel The Galactic Whirlpool. I also think that Uhura & Marcus should be able to do something beyond what they did (substantial as it was for Uhura in this movie) the next time around (no near-naked anything of any of the ladies-maybe have a near naked Spock, Kirk, McCoy, Chekov, Scott, or Sulu being peeked at by Uhura or Marcus! )

BTW, this discussion (and others like it) reminds me of these pictures:

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Old June 6 2013, 09:39 PM   #30
Franklin
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
The only people integral to the story are Kirk and Spock. Everything else is just fluffy stuff window dressing for Kirk and Spock. That includes Bone's bitching about things, Uhura kissing Spock, Marcus undoing torpedoes, Scotty faffing about..

It's Kirk and Spock vs their Enemy. And probably will be next movie.
Yup.

TOS was never a so-called "ensemble show," and there's no reason that the new producers would turn it into one now.
I'd say in the movies they kind of do treat it like an ensemble, and have been in Trek movies since TSFS. The "everyone has to have something important to do" thing. But yeah, TOS wasn't an ensemble cast. Just watch the opening credits and count the lines in the scripts.

Ovation wrote: View Post
mos6507 wrote: View Post
Ovation wrote: View Post
This. And it has been true since the beginning (with TOS).
Wrong. The role of the ship's doctor in Trek has traditionally been that of the confidant, all the way back to The Cage. Kirk often has heart-to-heart talks with McCoy, like the one in Khan where McCoy tells Kirk to get his command back before he really does get old. Spock can not provide that same sort of worldly advice because he can not relate as closely to human wants and needs. There's an understanding there between Bones and Kirk that is unique to them. I think pop culture's sense of the importance Bones has eroded a great deal because DeForest Kelley avoided the limelight and he was the first of the main cast to die, whereas Nimoy and Shatner have remained ubiquitous and continue to riff on their roles.

McCoy's role was supplanted by Pike in JJ Trek, where Pike acted like the surrogate father. Maybe this was because they retconned McCoy to be about the same age as Kirk when he was older than Kirk in TOS. So apparently when the timeline split, McCoy magically got born later than in Prime continuity.
Still a secondary role compared to Kirk and Spock. An important one, but not equal to the others. So, the Kirk and Spock show. And McCoy was no older in TOS, relative to Kirk, than he is in the Abrams' films (nothing suggests more than half a decade or so difference between them in either case).
Kirk and Spock share a bond that comes from sharing the burden of command, even if Spock doesn't wear command gold and denies any ambitions in the area. Things revolve around them because they are the primary decision makers.

McCoy is important to both as a sounding board. In his own way, he keeps both on an even keel. He was never Kirk's mentor (that's silly). His job was to keep his friend sane, and he'd be a better wingman on shore leave than Spock, too.

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
You can bet all your vital organs that Uhura will be bitching about Spock and Marcus will be bitching about Kirk in all scenes they share together. While they are in underwear or in extremely tight clothes of course.
Probably. But if they do it in their underwear, it makes it at least something to look forward to.
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