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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old June 5 2013, 11:44 PM   #16
tomswift2002
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Re: Charting the Novel-verse's Discontinuities

Don't forget about Dr. Selar adopting the Andorian child in TNG #13 "The Eye Of The Beholder", but not having any kids when New Frontier starts. Not to mention, but in TNG#13 as well the Andorians are a 2-gendered species and are able to have kids, just like humans, unlike the 4-gendered Andorians we're currently seeing.

But, really, due to the amount of time that's taken place since "Mission To Horatius" came out in 1968, there's going to be contradictions between most of the novels.
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Old June 6 2013, 12:28 AM   #17
Sci
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Re: Charting the Novel-verse's Discontinuities

tomswift2002 wrote: View Post
Don't forget about Dr. Selar adopting the Andorian child in TNG #13 "The Eye Of The Beholder", but not having any kids when New Frontier starts. Not to mention, but in TNG#13 as well the Andorians are a 2-gendered species and are able to have kids, just like humans, unlike the 4-gendered Andorians we're currently seeing.
Those novels aren't part of "the novelverse," though.

The term "novelverse" is generally used to refer to shared continuity that has developed in the Trek lines since circa 2001 (though I prefer to call this continuity the Destinyverse, or the Palaisverse). Some earlier novels have been "grandfathered" into that continuity -- The Captain's Daughter and Vendetta come to mind -- and some elements of earlier novels (but not every detail) have been grandfathered in. (And the New Frontier series is kind of "half in, half out.") But most pre-2001 novels are not part of the Destinyverse.
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Old June 6 2013, 12:49 AM   #18
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Re: Charting the Novel-verse's Discontinuities

I apologize. I may have been unclear when I started this thread.

What I was asking was if there was a thread or website that covers how any particular novel might contradict another novel or TV canon. For example, New Earth and Deep Domain show Chekov receiving his promotion transfer in different ways.

You guys have given a lot of good examples of contradictions but I was looking for something a little more comprehensive.

Being a Doctor Who fan as well, I have been spoiled by incredibly thorough sites such as The Doctor Who Reference Guide, The Discontinuity Guides, etc. and was wondering if there was a Star Trek equivalent. I've checked Memory Beta but its not quite what I was thinking of even though it IS a great resource.

Thanks for your help,
Jsplinis
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Old June 6 2013, 01:07 AM   #19
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Re: Charting the Novel-verse's Discontinuities

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
In New Frontier #13: Gods Above, Spock arrives via the Romulan Praetor's personal transport, the Bird-of-Paradise - but five or six years later at the start of Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts of Empire, Spock is still languishing in the caves beheath the Romulan capital city, having made no progress since "Unification"
I've stopped counting NF in these kinds of situations. There are so many things like that that I've started thinking of NF taking place in a separate universe that is very similar to the one in the novelverse.
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Old June 6 2013, 01:59 AM   #20
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Re: Charting the Novel-verse's Discontinuities

Jsplinis wrote: View Post
What I was asking was if there was a thread or website that covers how any particular novel might contradict another novel or TV canon. For example, New Earth and Deep Domain show Chekov receiving his promotion transfer in different ways.
I doubt anyone has catalogued the inconsistencies that exhaustively. I'm not sure there's a need to. It seems a rather negative way of approaching things. Trek tie-ins have always encompassed a variety of parallel continuities and interpretations; I like to see the different versions of the same event not as a "contradiction" so much as a selection of alternatives.
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Old June 6 2013, 02:41 AM   #21
Jsplinis
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Re: Charting the Novel-verse's Discontinuities

Thanks Christopher,

I see where your coming from but I didn't mean any disrespect to any writer's work.

Actually, as a longtime Doctor Who fan I'm used to a fictional universe where everything counts. Both Executive Producer Russell T. Davies and his successor Stephen Moffatt have stated that because the show deals with time travel that every story in any form no matter how contradictory can and does count. The easy explanation for discrepancies is that time travel changes time and creates the alternate versions of events.

In fact, The Doctor himself has discussed his ever changing timeline with his companions. Adric tried to read The Doctor's diary but had trouble because it kept changing and the Doctor explained that was because his past was always changing. And Amy asked why she could remember two personal histories when a time change happened. The Doctor explained that both versions of her life happened and that this was a common occurrence for himself.

Although, this is an incredibly easy explanation for any contradiction, fans still try to reconcile those contradictions in other ways. Why? Just for fun.

And that's kind of where I was coming from. I know that no expanded universe story counts as canon for Star Trek, but I thought it would be fun to know about continuity and discontinuity in the novels, comics, etc., just for the fun of it. And then maybe I could used this info to build a personal timeline of extended Star Trek of my own.

I assume that Star Trek fiction could fit into 3 forms: stories that link, stories that stand in their own with no major continuity between them and thus no major contradictions, and stories that offer events that can't coexist with the events in other stories. The first set is covered in the Charting the Novel-verse thread, but I was just looking for info on the others.

Once again, I didn't mean disrespect to any writer or story, just wanted to learn about the differences between them.

Thanks,
Jsplinis
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Old June 6 2013, 02:50 AM   #22
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Re: Charting the Novel-verse's Discontinuities

Can't the thread just serve that purpose?
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Old June 6 2013, 03:38 AM   #23
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Re: Charting the Novel-verse's Discontinuities

I've found that different people disagree on what's reconcilable and what isn't. So I'm not sure you could decide such a thing based on a list someone else created. For me it's always been more of a personal judgment call -- and sometimes I'll go back and reread a book I counted in continuity in the past and realize something about it that makes me decide not to count it anymore, or I'll reread a book I discounted in the past and decide, what the heck, the discrepancies I saw in it before are nothing I can't reconcile. So my "model" of the Trek continuity is ever-changing and evolving -- which keeps it interesting for me, since it lets me continue to be creative with it. So I think it's more a subjective choice, something you're better off deciding for yourself than trying to find some external reference for.
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Old June 6 2013, 04:03 AM   #24
Charles Phipps
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Re: Charting the Novel-verse's Discontinuities

JD wrote: View Post
I've stopped counting NF in these kinds of situations. There are so many things like that that I've started thinking of NF taking place in a separate universe that is very similar to the one in the novelverse.
There's a TV trope for this called, "Broad Strokes" where there's a bunch of stuff in something that is important and should be considered canonical but not every detail is. Which I think fits NF to a t.

In my headcanon, Mac Calhoun and his adventures occur but this is all some bar-story and only the rough events occur with a lot heavily exaggerated.



Others may view NF as absolutely canon and everyone else who makes the mistakes.
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Old June 6 2013, 04:08 AM   #25
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Re: Charting the Novel-verse's Discontinuities

Christopher wrote: View Post
I've found that different people disagree on what's reconcilable and what isn't.
Agreed. In my personal continuity, I have no problems with the Kirk on Excelsior and Spock on Surak comics set between ST3 and ST4, although many dismiss them as incompatable.
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Old June 6 2013, 07:56 AM   #26
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Re: Charting the Novel-verse's Discontinuities

Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
JD wrote: View Post
I've stopped counting NF in these kinds of situations. There are so many things like that that I've started thinking of NF taking place in a separate universe that is very similar to the one in the novelverse.
There's a TV trope for this called, "Broad Strokes" where there's a bunch of stuff in something that is important and should be considered canonical but not every detail is. Which I think fits NF to a t.

In my headcanon, Mac Calhoun and his adventures occur but this is all some bar-story and only the rough events occur with a lot heavily exaggerated.



Others may view NF as absolutely canon and everyone else who makes the mistakes.
As a longtime New Frontier fan, I tend to view NF as my "prime continuity" - after all, NF has had an internally consistent continuity since 97, way before the other trek lines.

I know some readers find the plots far-fetched, but I don't think there's anything in there more outlandish than TOS. IIRC, in one novel some admirals express the opinion that Calhoun's adventures can't be real, and when its pointed out that Kirk reported far wilder things, they say they think Kirk falsified his reports as well.

I don't find NF particularly irreconcilable though - the major sticking points I've seen people mention are the timeline of Blind Mans Bluff, and Necheyev.

To me, it seems clear that BMB occurs after Before Dishonour, but before Destiny (post-destiny seems to be the popular theory). After all, if it was post-destiny, the people seven talks to who say about her "being there when the borg ate pluto" would surely have forgotten that in favour of "the borg that just killed billions across the federation"? I think the bit about her implants being gone is just sloppy editing, so if thats ignored, there isn't a continuity problem to me.

It seems clear to me that Nechayev in BMB wasn't the "real" one, and that she was probably a captive somewhere. I'd be willing to bet if a follow up NF novel had been written, it would have resolved this by finding the "real" nechayev, so that she was back in place for the rest of the novelverse.
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Old June 6 2013, 01:09 PM   #27
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Re: Charting the Novel-verse's Discontinuities

CaffeineAddict wrote: View Post
I know some readers find the plots far-fetched, but I don't think there's anything in there more outlandish than TOS. IIRC, in one novel some admirals express the opinion that Calhoun's adventures can't be real, and when its pointed out that Kirk reported far wilder things, they say they think Kirk falsified his reports as well.
In his preface to the Star Trek: The Motion Picture novelization, Gene Roddenberry employed the conceit that Star Trek had been a 23rd-century dramatization of the real adventures of Kirk and his crew, and said that Kirk had criticized it for its inaccuracies and exaggerations.
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Old June 6 2013, 06:20 PM   #28
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Re: Charting the Novel-verse's Discontinuities

Christopher wrote: View Post
CaffeineAddict wrote: View Post
I know some readers find the plots far-fetched, but I don't think there's anything in there more outlandish than TOS. IIRC, in one novel some admirals express the opinion that Calhoun's adventures can't be real, and when its pointed out that Kirk reported far wilder things, they say they think Kirk falsified his reports as well.
In his preface to the Star Trek: The Motion Picture novelization, Gene Roddenberry employed the conceit that Star Trek had been a 23rd-century dramatization of the real adventures of Kirk and his crew, and said that Kirk had criticized it for its inaccuracies and exaggerations.
I didn't know that - that's quite amusing.
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Old June 6 2013, 10:13 PM   #29
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Re: Charting the Novel-verse's Discontinuities

Well... if we're talking any old novel contradictions... S.D. Perry's Avatar duology ignores the Dominion War novels by John Vornholt when it comes to Ro Laren.
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Old June 7 2013, 04:41 AM   #30
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Re: Charting the Novel-verse's Discontinuities

Starbreaker wrote: View Post
Well... if we're talking any old novel contradictions... S.D. Perry's Avatar duology ignores the Dominion War novels by John Vornholt when it comes to Ro Laren.

Not to mention DS9# 20 "Wrath Of The Prophets".

Of course with John Vornholt's books there doesn't seem to be anything in the post-DS9 books contradicting his story of "Rogue Saucer" in terms of Ro's backstory.
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