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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old June 5 2013, 06:05 PM   #331
Paris
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Paris wrote: View Post
JoeZhang wrote: View Post

Hey it's a universe where you can get the keys to the flagship of the federation as a failing cadet.
Failing? When was he failing? He was set to complete his studies a year early. He was just grounded for the whole Kobayashi Maru stunt. If anything, he exceled at the academy. According to some of the material released along side the first film, he was even instructing a combat class.
One can spin doctor it anyway one wishes; an excellent cadet with both 0 experience and serious disciplinary problems getting the flagship ahead of seasoned officers is unrealistic.
I never said it wasn't unrealistic. It definitely is unrealistic that a cadet gets to captain the flagship. What I was saying was that at no time was Kirk a "failing" cadet.
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Old June 5 2013, 06:44 PM   #332
Enterpriserules
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Paris wrote: View Post
JoeZhang wrote: View Post

Hey it's a universe where you can get the keys to the flagship of the federation as a failing cadet.
Failing? When was he failing? He was set to complete his studies a year early. He was just grounded for the whole Kobayashi Maru stunt. If anything, he exceled at the academy. According to some of the material released along side the first film, he was even instructing a combat class.
One can spin doctor it anyway one wishes; an excellent cadet with both 0 experience and serious disciplinary problems getting the flagship ahead of seasoned officers is unrealistic.
Unless, like Pike, you see greatness in Kirk who has proved himself in the last two films to be a savant
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Old June 5 2013, 07:06 PM   #333
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

You want to talk about unrealistic command assignments in Trek movies? Let's see... how about dropping Admiral Kirk back down to captain and demoting Captain Decker to first officer for the V'Ger mission, rather than just having Admiral Kirk lead the mission with Decker's Enterprise as his flagship? How about giving Kirk & crew their own replacement Enterprise after they committed mutiny, sabotage, violation of restricted space, and the reckless destruction of Starfleet property? How about keeping the same command crew together in the same posts on the same ship (or its replacement) for over a quarter-century even after they've all reached captain's or commander's rank? We've already got plenty of precedent for Starfleet making command assignments in ways that by modern standards are quite capricious and illogical.
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Old June 5 2013, 07:36 PM   #334
Enterpriserules
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Christopher wrote: View Post
You want to talk about unrealistic command assignments in Trek movies? Let's see... how about dropping Admiral Kirk back down to captain and demoting Captain Decker to first officer for the V'Ger mission, rather than just having Admiral Kirk lead the mission with Decker's Enterprise as his flagship? How about giving Kirk & crew their own replacement Enterprise after they committed mutiny, sabotage, violation of restricted space, and the reckless destruction of Starfleet property? How about keeping the same command crew together in the same posts on the same ship (or its replacement) for over a quarter-century even after they've all reached captain's or commander's rank? We've already got plenty of precedent for Starfleet making command assignments in ways that by modern standards are quite capricious and illogical.
Well said sir. Star Trek has always played loose with the rules of a true command structure to tell it's stories. I mean Harry Kim is an ensign for 7 stinking years!
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Old June 5 2013, 08:03 PM   #335
Edit_XYZ
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Enterpriserules wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Paris wrote: View Post

Failing? When was he failing? He was set to complete his studies a year early. He was just grounded for the whole Kobayashi Maru stunt. If anything, he exceled at the academy. According to some of the material released along side the first film, he was even instructing a combat class.
One can spin doctor it anyway one wishes; an excellent cadet with both 0 experience and serious disciplinary problems getting the flagship ahead of seasoned officers is unrealistic.
Unless, like Pike, you see greatness in Kirk who has proved himself in the last two films to be a savant
The Kirk who let out of his cell a proven murderer/terrorist and then let him near highly sensitive equipment?
That doesn't really scream 'competent'. Quite the contrary.

Christopher wrote: View Post
You want to talk about unrealistic command assignments in Trek movies? Let's see... how about dropping Admiral Kirk back down to captain and demoting Captain Decker to first officer for the V'Ger mission, rather than just having Admiral Kirk lead the mission with Decker's Enterprise as his flagship? How about giving Kirk & crew their own replacement Enterprise after they committed mutiny, sabotage, violation of restricted space, and the reckless destruction of Starfleet property? How about keeping the same command crew together in the same posts on the same ship (or its replacement) for over a quarter-century even after they've all reached captain's or commander's rank? We've already got plenty of precedent for Starfleet making command assignments in ways that by modern standards are quite capricious and illogical.
It is a matter of degrees. The examples in this quote are hard core realism (and some, taken out of context) by comparison to nuKirk's ascension.
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Old June 5 2013, 08:09 PM   #336
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

holy fucking christ - it was an off-the-cuff gag.
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Old June 5 2013, 08:13 PM   #337
Enterpriserules
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

The Kirk who let out of his cell a proven murderer/terrorist and then let him near highly sensitive equipment?
That doesn't really scream 'competent'. Quite the contrary.
Kirk sees aligning with Khan as the best way to save his crew, he knows he's going to be played at some point, but he also knows it's that or death for his crew and a war for the Federation because of Marcus. He gambles and it works out in the end because he also trusted in Spock, who tricks Khan. Wise moves all around.
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Old June 5 2013, 08:16 PM   #338
Edit_XYZ
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Enterpriserules wrote: View Post
The Kirk who let out of his cell a proven murderer/terrorist and then let him near highly sensitive equipment?
That doesn't really scream 'competent'. Quite the contrary.
Kirk sees aligning with Khan as the best way to save his crew, he knows he's going to be played at some point, but he also knows it's that or death for his crew and a war for the Federation because of Marcus. He gambles and it works out in the end because he also trusted in Spock, who tricks Khan. Wise moves all around.
"that or death for his crew and a war for the Federation"?

This very thread presented several easy to find alternatives to these 2 options you falsely present as the only ones available (alternatives which don't involve war or all but allowing a terrorist to continue his rampage).
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Old June 5 2013, 08:18 PM   #339
Enterpriserules
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Enterpriserules wrote: View Post
The Kirk who let out of his cell a proven murderer/terrorist and then let him near highly sensitive equipment?
That doesn't really scream 'competent'. Quite the contrary.
Kirk sees aligning with Khan as the best way to save his crew, he knows he's going to be played at some point, but he also knows it's that or death for his crew and a war for the Federation because of Marcus. He gambles and it works out in the end because he also trusted in Spock, who tricks Khan. Wise moves all around.
"that or death for his crew and a war for the Federation"?

This very thread presented several easy to find alternatives to these 2 options you falsely present as the only ones available (alternatives which didn't involve war or all but allowing a terrorist to continue his rampage).
Well, if it doesn't work for you that is fine. I think it works. I find that if you want to poke holes in something you can do it with anything. I look for what is good about something first. By doing that, I really enjoyed ID and the ongoing comics.
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Old June 5 2013, 08:25 PM   #340
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Enterpriserules wrote: View Post
I find that if you want to poke holes in something you can do it with anything.
This is incorrect.

About the rest of your post - fair enough.
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Old June 5 2013, 08:31 PM   #341
Enterpriserules
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Enterpriserules wrote: View Post
I find that if you want to poke holes in something you can do it with anything.
This is incorrect.

About the rest of your post - fair enough.
Even the best of Trek you can poke holes in, so I do not see that as incorrect. And almost every story you can do that. Isn't that what red letter media is all about? Or "How it should have ended"?

How you approach a story will have a lot to do with whether you like it or not. I approach them positively and then let the story itself speak to me, sometimes it works and sometimes I still don't like it. Case in point: I wanted to like Prometheus, but in the end hated it; not because I wanted too but because I just thought the story sucked.
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Old June 5 2013, 08:38 PM   #342
Edit_XYZ
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Enterpriserules, I can name quite a few works of fiction where one can't poke holes - can't name plot holes, character dummyfing, etc.

This is true about many star trek episodes, as well - for the trekverse, excepting the fact that no one in there seems to use the technology to its full potential.
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Old June 5 2013, 08:46 PM   #343
Enterpriserules
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Edit_XYZ, my main point is that most, if not all the Trek films have holes as do many movies. It's just whether you can forgive them and still enjoy the movie. I loved ID and thought that it was a strong movie with good characters that grow. I understand others do not feel that way and that's ok. But the nuTrek has set up some things that are different from the Prime universe and I am mostly ok with them (except for the brewery and still not loving the ship design itself). I think this is a stronger film than the first because I like the character growth. IDIC is was Trek is about. So I don't expect all fans to like nuTrek or ongoing. I am content to enjoy it.
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Old June 5 2013, 08:57 PM   #344
Pauln6
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Christopher wrote: View Post
You want to talk about unrealistic command assignments in Trek movies? Let's see... how about dropping Admiral Kirk back down to captain and demoting Captain Decker to first officer for the V'Ger mission, rather than just having Admiral Kirk lead the mission with Decker's Enterprise as his flagship? How about giving Kirk & crew their own replacement Enterprise after they committed mutiny, sabotage, violation of restricted space, and the reckless destruction of Starfleet property? How about keeping the same command crew together in the same posts on the same ship (or its replacement) for over a quarter-century even after they've all reached captain's or commander's rank? We've already got plenty of precedent for Starfleet making command assignments in ways that by modern standards are quite capricious and illogical.
Promoting Chekov to commander in the first place was pretty silly - the guy was an air-head.

But yeah, I think Decker would have filed a grievance with his union rep had he lived through the V'Ger incident.

Having the crew training cadets in TWoK was fine, putting the senior crew at comms and helm instead of the cadets they were trying to train was pretty silly, at least until the crisis erupted.

Given the hard time Kirstie Alley felt she had I think it was more the actors worrying that they might be replaced that led to the silliness.
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Old June 5 2013, 10:36 PM   #345
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Enterpriserules, I can name quite a few works of fiction where one can't poke holes
Please do. I'm sure we can find some holes.
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