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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 5 2013, 02:54 AM   #16
Mr. B
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Re: '300 years ago' , in this film's context, was the 1950s!

I am not Spock wrote: View Post
Carcazoid wrote: View Post
It's all made up history anyway. What difference does it make?
True
Yeah, slavery was like... 400 years ago.
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Old June 5 2013, 03:04 AM   #17
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Re: '300 years ago' , in this film's context, was the 1950s!

Mr. B wrote: View Post
I am not Spock wrote: View Post
Carcazoid wrote: View Post
It's all made up history anyway. What difference does it make?
True
Yeah, slavery was like... 400 years ago.
What part of "made up" don't you get?
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Old June 5 2013, 03:06 AM   #18
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Re: '300 years ago' , in this film's context, was the 1950s!

It is possible that it was the 1950s in which Khan and his Augments were bred. If so, that would place Khan in his forties when he fought the Eugenics Wars. Coincidently enough, Ricardo Montalban was in his forties when he was in Space Seed. Cumberbatch is only 36, but presumably genetic engineering can make people look younger than they are.
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Old June 5 2013, 03:40 AM   #19
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Re: '300 years ago' , in this film's context, was the 1950s!

Mr. B wrote: View Post
I am not Spock wrote: View Post
Carcazoid wrote: View Post
It's all made up history anyway. What difference does it make?
True
Yeah, slavery was like... 400 years ago.
Which is accurate.
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Old June 5 2013, 10:04 AM   #20
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Re: '300 years ago' , in this film's context, was the 1950s!

BillJ wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post

It's been my impresion that it's been reconned to the mid-21st century already.
When? Both times we see Khan in the Prime timeline, the year 1996 is mentioned.
Well I've always associated WWIII and the Eugenic Wars. In Encounter at Farpoint and ST:FC it's clear the former is now in the 21st century, whereas I think it was implied to be in the 20th in TOS.
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Old June 5 2013, 01:10 PM   #21
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Re: '300 years ago' , in this film's context, was the 1950s!

I really liked that they kept from changing the era Khan was from, and kept everything said in line with both Trek's canon and the Eugenics Wars novels. In fact, Khans goal according to Spock in ID was to "kill all those not considered superior" - which is what he tried to do in the second EW novel, once he realized that regular humans would never accept his rule.
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Old June 5 2013, 03:44 PM   #22
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Re: '300 years ago' , in this film's context, was the 1950s!

Belz... wrote: View Post
Well I've always associated WWIII and the Eugenic Wars. In Encounter at Farpoint and ST:FC it's clear the former is now in the 21st century, whereas I think it was implied to be in the 20th in TOS.
I've always considered the Eugenics Wars to be a series of separate but related wars lasting on and off from ~1992-2079 that were thematically connected by later historians, much like the Hundred Years' War was in reality.

That way, if you want you can encompass any or all of the following into these separate but related Eugenics Wars:

- Khan's and the other Augments Eugenics Wars of 1992-96
-the confusion over the death toll in WWIII between Spock's, Riker's, Phlox's and other estimates (30/35/37/or 600 million dead), and also the confusion between whether Khan's war was WWIII or whether it was a separate conflict
- the neo-Trotskyist revolts in Europe (though that seems more related to the global economic collapse of the time)
- the nuclear exchange in WWIII in 2053 with the Eastern Coalition that killed over 600 million people
- Colonel Green's earlier eco-terrorist conflicts and mass genocide in WWIII in 2026 that killed 37 million people
- the post-atomic horror lasting till at least after 2079
- the wars in the 21st century mentioned in "The Savage Curtain"
- the genetic engineering of Dr. Stavos Keniclius well into the 21st century before it was finally banned and he was exiled like Khan
- the still recovering from WWIII Earth in the 22nd century from "Up the Long Ladder"
- Archer's great-grandfather fighting in the Eugenics Wars in North Africa, which would have to be long after 1992-96

Hell, if you really wanted to stretch it, you could call the events of the Augments and Klingon arc in Enterprise S4 the last gasp of the Eugenics Wars, which could explain Admiral Bennett in DS9 thinking they extended into the 22nd century.
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Old June 5 2013, 04:58 PM   #23
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Re: '300 years ago' , in this film's context, was the 1950s!

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post
Well I've always associated WWIII and the Eugenic Wars. In Encounter at Farpoint and ST:FC it's clear the former is now in the 21st century, whereas I think it was implied to be in the 20th in TOS.
I've always considered the Eugenics Wars to be a series of separate but related wars lasting on and off from ~1992-2079 that were thematically connected by later historians, much like the Hundred Years' War was in reality.

That way, if you want you can encompass any or all of the following into these separate but related Eugenics Wars:

- Khan's and the other Augments Eugenics Wars of 1992-96
-the confusion over the death toll in WWIII between Spock's, Riker's, Phlox's and other estimates (30/35/37/or 600 million dead), and also the confusion between whether Khan's war was WWIII or whether it was a separate conflict
- the neo-Trotskyist revolts in Europe (though that seems more related to the global economic collapse of the time)
- the nuclear exchange in WWIII in 2053 with the Eastern Coalition that killed over 600 million people
- Colonel Green's earlier eco-terrorist conflicts and mass genocide in WWIII in 2026 that killed 37 million people
- the post-atomic horror lasting till at least after 2079
- the wars in the 21st century mentioned in "The Savage Curtain"
- the genetic engineering of Dr. Stavos Keniclius well into the 21st century before it was finally banned and he was exiled like Khan
- the still recovering from WWIII Earth in the 22nd century from "Up the Long Ladder"
- Archer's great-grandfather fighting in the Eugenics Wars in North Africa, which would have to be long after 1992-96

Hell, if you really wanted to stretch it, you could call the events of the Augments and Klingon arc in Enterprise S4 the last gasp of the Eugenics Wars, which could explain Admiral Bennett in DS9 thinking they extended into the 22nd century.


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Old June 5 2013, 05:31 PM   #24
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Re: '300 years ago' , in this film's context, was the 1950s!

I am not Spock wrote: View Post
In this new Trek timeline, it is 2258 or 59 or something like that. So '300 years' ago would be the 1950s. Have they retconned the dates of the Eugenics Wars again? Might have been better if they just merged WW3 and the Eugenics Wars into the one conflict, and said 200 years (the 2050s)
Its accurate because Khan would have born in the 1950's and was around 40 years old during the eugenics wars.

Wouldn't that make Khan around 300 years old in 2258?
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Old June 5 2013, 05:34 PM   #25
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Re: '300 years ago' , in this film's context, was the 1950s!

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Hell, if you really wanted to stretch it, you could call the events of the Augments and Klingon arc in Enterprise S4 the last gasp of the Eugenics Wars, which could explain Admiral Bennett in DS9 thinking they extended into the 22nd century.
That's certainly a very good way of looking at it. Personally I think they messed up the timelines a couple of times and it changed how things occured, which is why we get conflicting statements at different points in the franchise.

Of course, in reality it's probably because the writers didn't have a clue how the timeline was supposed to unfold.
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Old June 6 2013, 03:13 AM   #26
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Re: '300 years ago' , in this film's context, was the 1950s!

Having it covered by "ongoing arguments amongst historians whose papers the characters read and are influenced by" works for me.
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Old June 6 2013, 04:09 AM   #27
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Re: '300 years ago' , in this film's context, was the 1950s!

There are some radio shows that allege that perhaps the Eugenics wars are actually being waged now, the conflict just hasn't come to fighting yet.
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Old June 6 2013, 05:01 AM   #28
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Re: '300 years ago' , in this film's context, was the 1950s!

Robert_T_April wrote: View Post
I am not Spock wrote: View Post
In this new Trek timeline, it is 2258 or 59 or something like that. So '300 years' ago would be the 1950s. Have they retconned the dates of the Eugenics Wars again? Might have been better if they just merged WW3 and the Eugenics Wars into the one conflict, and said 200 years (the 2050s)
Its accurate because Khan would have born in the 1950's and was around 40 years old during the eugenics wars.

Wouldn't that make Khan around 300 years old in 2258?
I'm going with this.

And, yeah, 300 years is just rounding. I don't blame them for not wanting to mention the 1990s. I wouldn't want to either. It's the "Don't ask, don't tell" of Star Trek.

It's safe to say that Khan wasn't born in the decade he was from. So, Khan being born in the 1950s makes sense.

Rounding or not, it works either way.

Belz... wrote: View Post
Of course, in reality it's probably because the writers didn't have a clue how the timeline was supposed to unfold.
It was pretty much human error.

Ron Moore used to do Q&A online during the '90s when DS9 was on. He said that he had the line "200 years ago" from TWOK on his mind while writing Dr. Bashir, I Presume? and realize he had a mistake until later, and no one else caught it.
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Old June 6 2013, 09:26 AM   #29
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Re: '300 years ago' , in this film's context, was the 1950s!

I suppose we have to realise that all these characters are not historians. They may not be reliable narrators. McCoy is a doctor, not a historian.

Admiral Bennett in 'Dr Bashir, I Presume?' may be the one with a faulty knowledge of history! (Ron Moore is off the hook!)

I mean, in daily life, people don't often go around talking about specific historical events (which goes some way towards explaining why they never mentioned Jonathan Archer in TOS, TNG, DS9, or VOY; there was no need for them to). And when people do talk about history, unless they're an expert in the field, there's often a bit of generalisation involved, and an amount of incorrectness.
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Old June 6 2013, 09:34 AM   #30
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Re: '300 years ago' , in this film's context, was the 1950s!

i'm reminded of something i was taught when i was in elementary school regarding rounding. it was like "5 or more go next door (meaning round up). 4 or less home is best" (mean round down). so 260 could be rounded up to 300.
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