RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 135,755
Posts: 5,216,218
Members: 24,216
Currently online: 858
Newest member: kasmuruis

TrekToday headlines

Q Meets NuTrek Crew
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18

Pine In Talks For Drama
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18

New X-Men: Days of Future Past Trailer
By: T'Bonz on Apr 17

Nimoy to Receive Award
By: T'Bonz on Apr 17

Star Trek Special: Flesh and Stone Comic
By: T'Bonz on Apr 16

These Are The Voyages TOS Season Two Book Review
By: T'Bonz on Apr 16

Kirk’s Well Wishes To Kirk
By: T'Bonz on Apr 15

Quinto In New Starz Series
By: T'Bonz on Apr 15

Star Trek: Horizon Film
By: T'Bonz on Apr 14

Star Trek: Fleet Captains Game Expansion
By: T'Bonz on Apr 14


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 2 2013, 01:27 PM   #46
CorporalCaptain
Vice Admiral
 
CorporalCaptain's Avatar
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: Engineering's curved hallways

Maurice wrote: View Post
They had a standing set that they didn't think too much about. The Jupiter 2 isn't big enough to contain anything like its lower deck (let alone the engine room), and, news flash, the Brady Bunch set doesn't fit into the house exterior shown.
Yep.


It's just TV for pete's sake.
No, it's real I tellsya, it's real!!! [/à la Galaxy Quest]
__________________
John
CorporalCaptain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 3 2013, 10:41 AM   #47
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Engineering's curved hallways

jayrath wrote: View Post
Everyone knows that engineering is "downstairs," somewhere in the secondary hull, right?
Looks like I missed this thread.

Apparently the star drive engineering section is in the engineering hull and the location the alien entity exits the ship in "Day of the Dove" can be taken as sufficient evidence.

However, the Season One set blueprints clearly reveal that the "Engineering Control Room" ("The Naked Time") is obviously on the port side of the saucer (leaving enough space in the center for a turboshaft).

In addition the context of "Court-Martial" is pretty clear about Finney having sabotaged the Impulse engines and that he is somewhere on the impulse deck ("B Deck" = "Berth Deck" = Main Deck 6, IMHO).

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 3 2013, 11:06 AM   #48
Kelso
Vice Admiral
 
Kelso's Avatar
 
Location: On the destruct button until the last minute!
View Kelso's Twitter Profile
Re: Engineering's curved hallways

scotpens wrote: View Post
feek61 wrote: View Post
. . . With artificial gravity it would make no difference. The circular sections could be because those corridors are going around the circumference around the secondary hull. Is that too far out?
With artificial gravity, I suppose anything is possible.

I love that flick.
Kelso is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 4 2013, 08:19 AM   #49
Maurice
Vice Admiral
 
Maurice's Avatar
 
Location: Maurice in San Francisco
Re: Engineering's curved hallways

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
However, the Season One set blueprints clearly reveal that the "Engineering Control Room" ("The Naked Time") is obviously on the port side of the saucer (leaving enough space in the center for a turboshaft).
The set plans reveal only the layout of the shooting sets on the soundstage, not some correlation to an overall fictional vessel.
__________________
* * *
“The absence of limitations is the enemy of art.”
― Orson Welles
Maurice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 4 2013, 12:02 PM   #50
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Engineering's curved hallways

Maurice wrote: View Post
The set plans reveal only the layout of the shooting sets on the soundstage, not some correlation to an overall fictional vessel.
Technically correct, but the "odd" angle of the Season One engine room set sticks out like a sore thumb which could suggest a deliberate design, especially since it makes "real life" and "in-universe" sense to enable efficient turbo lift car passage between the hulls.

Mytran did a nice visualization in this thread (post # 56).

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 4 2013, 12:53 PM   #51
CorporalCaptain
Vice Admiral
 
CorporalCaptain's Avatar
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: Engineering's curved hallways

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
The set plans reveal only the layout of the shooting sets on the soundstage, not some correlation to an overall fictional vessel.
Technically correct, but the "odd" angle of the Season One engine room set sticks out like a sore thumb which could suggest a deliberate design, especially since it makes "real life" and "in-universe" sense to enable efficient turbo lift car passage between the hulls.

Mytran did a nice visualization in this thread (post # 56).

Bob
That, blssdwlf's rendering in post #60, and many other things in that thread and referenced in it, are all very interesting.

However, there's zero evidence that any such layouts were what was specifically intended by the TOS production staff (of Jefferies, Roddenberry, et al.), and moreover there's zero evidence that there was any specific layout intended by them at all, other than that "it all fits in there somehow" (aside from the general parameters outlined in TMoST, and a few known data points such as where the bridge and hangar deck go). The "unearthing" of evidence contradicting that latter point, and of deck plans drawn before or during production in particular, would be a true revelation.
__________________
John
CorporalCaptain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 4 2013, 01:47 PM   #52
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: Engineering's curved hallways

@Bob - there is plenty of room for interpretation. As others said, the standing set doesn't have to correlate to physical arrangement. I had put the S1 engine room on the starboard side whereas you and Mytran had a port side arrangement.
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 4 2013, 02:44 PM   #53
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Engineering's curved hallways

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
There is plenty of room for interpretation. As others said, the standing set doesn't have to correlate to physical arrangement. I had put the S1 engine room on the starboard side whereas you and Mytran had a port side arrangement.
But by doing it your way you violated the "Thermian Directive", IMHO.

Where there is a clear cut between camera shots (e.g. "Court-Martial") one could speculate that the "in-universe" alignment could be different, but in "The Naked Time" we do see part of the Engineering Control Room from the outside and we do see the outside corridor from the inside the very next second.

I'm sure an elaborated computer analysis of the footage will reveal that the Season One studio set plan is accurate.

@ Corporal Captain

While technically there is "zero evidence" that Matt Jefferies and the producers deliberately designed the impulse engine rooms to allow room for a straight turbo lift connection between the engineering and the saucer hull, there is still a thing called "common sense" and simple logic.

And there is a noticable difference in height between the Season One and the Season Two/Three engine room that suggests these engine rooms to be different entities, add to this that Scotty was making a call to other "engine rooms" in "The Naked Time", so there is definitely more than one.

To me it looks that Mr. Joseph did not have any blueprint of the Season One Studio set, but essentially mixed the Season Two blueprint illustrated in The Making of Star Trek with the Season One (!) text information referring to the Season One Studio set blueprint and location in the saucer hull.
Which, of course, would be a simple explanation why most fans assume the engine room to be located at the center stern of the saucer.

But whatever the case - back to the original topic - regardless of location there will always be a circular corridor in front of the engine room.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 4 2013, 02:59 PM   #54
CorporalCaptain
Vice Admiral
 
CorporalCaptain's Avatar
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: Engineering's curved hallways

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
@ Corporal Captain

While technically there is "zero evidence" that Matt Jefferies and the producers deliberately designed the impulse engine rooms to allow room for a straight turbo lift connection between the engineering and the saucer hull, there is still a thing called "common sense" and simple logic.

And there is a noticable difference in height between the Season One and the Season Two/Three engine room that suggests these engine rooms to be different entities, add to this that Scotty was making a call to other "engine rooms" in "The Naked Time", so there is definitely more than one.

To me it looks that Mr. Joseph did not have any blueprint of the Season One Studio set, but essentially mixed the Season Two blueprint illustrated in The Making of Star Trek with the Season One (!) text information referring to the Season One Studio set blueprint and location in the saucer hull.
Which, of course, would be a simple explanation why most fans assume the engine room to be located at the center stern of the saucer.

But whatever the case - back to the original topic - regardless of location there will always be a circular corridor in front of the engine room.

Bob
That doesn't really speak to any of what I said here, so I don't even know why you're addressing me with it.
__________________
John
CorporalCaptain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 4 2013, 05:14 PM   #55
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: Engineering's curved hallways

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Where there is a clear cut between camera shots (e.g. "Court-Martial") one could speculate that the "in-universe" alignment could be different, but in "The Naked Time" we do see part of the Engineering Control Room from the outside and we do see the outside corridor from the inside the very next second.
A circular corridor outside of "The Naked Time" engine room isn't being debated in my response. It's the placement of the room at port or starboard side of the saucer that we have a difference of opinion and you'll find no visual evidence to support a conclusive right or wrong answer, IMO.
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 5 2013, 10:45 AM   #56
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Engineering's curved hallways

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
It's the placement of the room at port or starboard side of the saucer that we have a difference of opinion and you'll find no visual evidence to support a conclusive right or wrong answer, IMO.
We do see the corridor leading to the Engineering Control room in two scenes with Kirk and Spock in "The Naked Time", the area in front of the Season Two/Three engine room (you placed on the port side and which they must have passed) simply is not there.

Add to this that the enter scenes of the Engineering Control Room,
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...timehd0979.jpg
and
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...timehd0980.jpg
provide us with sufficient background information (near the floor) to conclude that the Season One studio set blueprint and the alignment of the Engineering Control Room is accurate as shown and seen on these set plans.

The Thermians might not have had access to the studio set blueprint but their analysis of the "original documentary footage" would have yielded an exact reproduction of that blueprint, IMO.

If you prefer to have it differently that's your choice, and frankly, I'm grateful you did it your way as this was a contributing factor to inspire my deck plan project.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 5 2013, 01:34 PM   #57
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: Engineering's curved hallways

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
It's the placement of the room at port or starboard side of the saucer that we have a difference of opinion and you'll find no visual evidence to support a conclusive right or wrong answer, IMO.
We do see the corridor leading to the Engineering Control room in two scenes with Kirk and Spock in "The Naked Time", the area in front of the Season Two/Three engine room (you placed on the port side and which they must have passed) simply is not there.
What area would that be? The set used had an intervening angled hallway that Scotty runs down to get power to the helm. Also, you're now mixing S2/3 with S1. If you were to posit that the S2/3 engine room co-exists with S1 in the saucer, where is the visual that shows further down there is a starboard side engine room in S2/3? That doesn't exist.

The only conclusion I can draw is between S1 and S2 the engine rooms were upgraded and the corridors altered.

That doesn't alter the fact that the S1 engine room could be either port or starboard and no conclusion could be drawn from just the interior sets.


Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Add to this that the enter scenes of the Engineering Control Room,
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...timehd0979.jpg
and
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...timehd0980.jpg
provide us with sufficient background information (near the floor) to conclude that the Season One studio set blueprint and the alignment of the Engineering Control Room is accurate as shown and seen on these set plans.
That is not in debate. The alignment of the engine room however has no obvious relationship to the alignment of it relative to the ship.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
The Thermians might not have had access to the studio set blueprint but their analysis of the "original documentary footage" would have yielded an exact reproduction of that blueprint, IMO.
They would have yielded an exact reproduction of the visible elements, not the blueprints. Which still would not be able to yield information on whether the engine room was on the port or starboard side. As I've said, it would still be an interpretation as to it's placement in the ship.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
If you prefer to have it differently that's your choice, and frankly, I'm grateful you did it your way as this was a contributing factor to inspire my deck plan project.
Glad I could help and you're a great example of how different people can interpret the series in different ways (which is a good thing).
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 11 2013, 04:46 PM   #58
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Engineering's curved hallways

Maurice wrote: View Post
The set plans reveal only the layout of the shooting sets on the soundstage, not some correlation to an overall fictional vessel.
Et tu, Maurice?

I've come to hold you in high esteem for your knowledgable and common sense BBS contributions (and your footnotes) but this remark constitutes quite a letdown and I'll have to insist that you deliver proof for this assumption (a statement from Matt Jefferies, please).

We do have historical records where Roddenberry made it clear he wanted the show to be as realistic as humanly possible to set it apart from pulp science fiction, and an interior ship layout that would follow some kind of internal logic would have been mandatory, wouldn't it?

You yourself provided evidence (regarding the delta insignia) how nitpicky Bob Justman was about such details and I have no doubt that Matt Jefferies, too, understood what the mission goal was.

The series started with small sets for "The Cage", which featured the Bridge and the Briefing Lounge with an adjacent corridor to access either Pike's cabin or the Transporter Room.

For WNM they still had the Bridge and the Briefing Lounge. A longer corridor (see my Avatar) was constructed with a turbo lift door, a door to the Transporter Room and the first sickbay.

Since the corridor with sickbay has a strange angle, I presume the original idea was to have "circular" saucer corridors by means of straight wall elements in angles that will eventually form something compatible within a circular saucer.

But then came the greenlight for the regular series and Matt Jefferies got the chance to design a circular studio set that would be compatible with a saucer hull. There should be little doubt that he knew that this one set would be often redressed to portray different sections of the ship.

In my deck plan thread I created a template that illustrates the issue (turned out to have a design flaw for which I'm to blame).

If instead of a Season Two corridor you connect another Season One corridor at "1 o'clock" you'll get an obvious symetrical layout of outward going corridors spaced apart exactly by 60° each and absolutely compliant with the hexagonal nature of the Briefing Lounge.

So this is just a coincidence without intelligent design by Matt Jefferies?

Obviously, when he designed the Season One set he couldn't know that he'd get the opportunity to redesign the set for Season Two.

While the Season Two set is much longer than the Season One set it did not only fill the Season One alignment gap at 5 o'clock (not illustrated!) but actually cannibalized part of the "sickbay" corridor end.

At first I wondered why he did that. Hadn't he paid attention, didn't he care?

The obvious answer became crystal clear when I redesigned the Deck 5 plan and especially the outer Areas (e.g. between 12 and 2 o'clock):

Once you bend the radius of the Season Two / Three corridor to present the outer corridor, its rectangular corridors become spot-on-match with the rectangular corridors of the inner Season One Studio set corridors !!!

So what is this? Just another collossal coincidence?

Just because Matt Jefferies didn't get a chance to tell us about his intentions, doesn't mean those didn't exist. Again, the result is self-explanatory once you take the time and take a closer look at the subject.



Anyway, although we do not "know" whether Matt Jefferies intended the port impulse engine room to be where it is in relation to the rest of the ship, those with eyes to see will notice
  • that the spacing between two studio set impulse engine rooms aligns rather well with the impulse exhausts on the 11-foot-model (and its rectangular and symetrical surface markings!)
  • that the spacing between two studio set impulse engine rooms allows for a turbo shaft to run in between to connect the saucer with the engineering hull
Objectively, this is an elegant, simple, beautiful and easy-to-understand layout, therefore I absolutely do not understand why we are even discussing whether that's what he intended or not.

Those how find fault with it or altered the Jefferies' design still owe us one answer: WHY?

What's wrong with Matt Jefferies' layout and what's better in the competing and conjectural designs?

If it ain't broken, don't fix or alter it!

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 11 2013, 04:55 PM   #59
Crazyewok
Commander
 
Re: Engineering's curved hallways

@op

Another intresting take is the corridors are curved for security reasons like trenchs.

If there is a enemy bording party it would make it allot more difficult for them to start a fire fight.
Crazyewok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 11 2013, 05:06 PM   #60
Admiral Buzzkill
The Legend
 
Re: Engineering's curved hallways

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Those how find fault with it or altered the Jefferies' design still owe us one answer: WHY?
Because Jefferies and Justman and the rest were in the business of making a TV series on a fixed budget, not designing and building a spaceship.

Next.
Admiral Buzzkill is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:52 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.