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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 4 2013, 10:11 AM   #106
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Re: What's Up with the Warp Core (SPOILERS Into Darkness)

throwback wrote: View Post
I can accept the warp core, if it didn't require a crew to climb the bloody thing to fix it. Why wasn't a more practical and safe solution not devised?
Like what ? Calling contractors to come and fix it ?

I don't understand how Spock repaired the ship doing what he did.
Does it matter ?
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Old June 4 2013, 10:20 AM   #107
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Re: What's Up with the Warp Core (SPOILERS Into Darkness)

There's a man-sized torpedo in the movie that can create an entire life-sustaining planet from scratch, and the issue is with how Spock fixed the Enterprise's warp engines?
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Old June 4 2013, 01:24 PM   #108
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Re: What's Up with the Warp Core (SPOILERS Into Darkness)

cooleddie74 wrote: View Post
The only things missing were a ripped shirt and the classic TOS fight or dramatic scene music.

A little "dah-dah-DAH-DAH-DAH-DAH" would have been sweet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6g234BRvKdk#t=1m55s

can't believe you missed that
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Old June 4 2013, 02:34 PM   #109
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Re: What's Up with the Warp Core (SPOILERS Into Darkness)

cooleddie74 wrote: View Post
Plus, isn't the primary engine core of a Borg vessel both enormous and extremely complicated?
Depends on the series. When we first met the Borg in TNG, it was stated that their ships were completely decentralized in construction -- there was no "primary core" for any component, because every function was distributed uniformly throughout the cube. Thus, it was impossible to neutralize any of the cube's systems without destroying most or all of the cube. However, Voyager forgot this and portrayed Borg ships the same as any other ship, having neatly centralized and non-redundant components that could be handily knocked out with a targeted phaser or torpedo shot.


ConRefit79 wrote: View Post
If I remember correctly,in TWOK, Spock enters the reactor room. The pedestal contains the DiLithium crystals. He must have reoriented the crystals.
Except it makes no sense for the dilithium crystals to be off to the side in a chamber that has no evident connection to the warp core. Also, from what Rick Sternbach told me when I was writing my TMP-era novel Ex Machina, the idea was that the intermix chamber didn't have distinct dilithium crystals per se, but rather had a deposited layer of dilithium coating the interior of the intermix shaft. Although I have trouble seeing how they could've done that yet not had the means to recrystallize dilithium. Basically the sequels did a lot to screw up the TMP designers' intentions.

Still, as much as I like the TMP engineering design in some respects, I've come to realize it does have some major design problems. The main one is that the intermix shaft doesn't seem to connect to anything except the warp and impulse engines. There are no evident power conduits connecting it to any other ship systems. Even though we know from onscreen dialogue that the phasers are tied into the warp engines.
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Old June 4 2013, 03:36 PM   #110
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Re: What's Up with the Warp Core (SPOILERS Into Darkness)

Christopher wrote: View Post
Depends on the series. When we first met the Borg in TNG, it was stated that their ships were completely decentralized in construction -- there was no "primary core" for any component, because every function was distributed uniformly throughout the cube. Thus, it was impossible to neutralize any of the cube's systems without destroying most or all of the cube. However, Voyager forgot this
First Contact, too. They handwave it away by having Picard tell Data to "trust" him, but Data's objection is valid.
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Old June 4 2013, 04:16 PM   #111
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Re: What's Up with the Warp Core (SPOILERS Into Darkness)

Christopher wrote: View Post
Except it makes no sense for the dilithium crystals to be off to the side in a chamber that has no evident connection to the warp core. Also, from what Rick Sternbach told me when I was writing my TMP-era novel Ex Machina, the idea was that the intermix chamber didn't have distinct dilithium crystals per se, but rather had a deposited layer of dilithium coating the interior of the intermix shaft. Although I have trouble seeing how they could've done that yet not had the means to recrystallize dilithium. Basically the sequels did a lot to screw up the TMP designers' intentions.

Still, as much as I like the TMP engineering design in some respects, I've come to realize it does have some major design problems. The main one is that the intermix shaft doesn't seem to connect to anything except the warp and impulse engines. There are no evident power conduits connecting it to any other ship systems. Even though we know from onscreen dialogue that the phasers are tied into the warp engines.
I believe the intermix actually takes place below Main Engineering, near the bottom of the ship. The Shaft we see is just a large EPS conduit. As for powering the ship, it's not canon, but some "plans" suggest a deck or two below, energy is tapped from the intermix chamber to supply internal main power. I've never understood the Reactor room. But, if you'll recall from a few TOS episodes, the crystals appear to be separated from the main reactor. Specifically, "Elaan of Troyius".
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Old June 4 2013, 05:11 PM   #112
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Re: What's Up with the Warp Core (SPOILERS Into Darkness)

ConRefit79 wrote: View Post
I believe the intermix actually takes place below Main Engineering, near the bottom of the ship. The Shaft we see is just a large EPS conduit.
No -- the concept of an EPS conduit wasn't created until eight years later, so that's an anachronistic interpretation. The big glowy shaft was called the "intermix chamber" according to the reference materials at the time. The idea was that the swirling lights we saw represented the actual matter-antimatter reaction taking place throughout the length of the shaft, something that Rick Sternbach referred to as a "swirl chamber" in his notes to me. Which really makes more sense in a way than the "pulse chamber" design of TNG, because in any given collision between particle and antiparticle streams, only a certain percentage of the particles/antiparticles are going to come into contact, so there will be a lot of unused reactant mass left over. An ongoing intermix seems like it would be more efficient at using up the fuel. Essentially the intermix chamber combines the functions of reaction chamber and power transfer conduit, because the reaction takes place along the entire conduit. (Voyager also used a swirl-chamber design.)

The David Kimble cutaway poster that came out as a TMP tie-in depicted the bottom of the shaft as containing the antimatter pods, although it was unclear on where the matter supply was. Since the top of the shaft connected to/powered the impulse engine, it stands to reason that both deuterium and antideuterium were injected at the bottom of the shaft.


As for powering the ship, it's not canon, but some "plans" suggest a deck or two below, energy is tapped from the intermix chamber to supply internal main power.
That's what I'd assume, but the problem is that the matte shot in the movie where Kirk looks down the shaft from the upper level of engineering makes it clear that there's nothing connecting to the shaft except for the horizontal conduit on the main level that goes back toward the warp nacelles. And the frameworks supporting that horizontal shaft are not substantial enough to make it seem like they contain power taps, though that strikes me as the easiest retcon.

I've never understood the Reactor room. But, if you'll recall from a few TOS episodes, the crystals appear to be separated from the main reactor. Specifically, "Elaan of Troyius".
Not really. If you look at Doug Drexler's Constitution-class cutaway based on the artwork that appeared onscreen in ENT: "In a Mirror, Darkly Part II" (archived here), it shows that the warp reactor ran under the floor of the engine room, with the triangular tubes behind the grille in back being the conduits heading up into the nacelle pylons. This means the unit that the dilithium crystals were raised from was actually the tip of the iceberg, essentially a maintenance port at the very top of the reactor, with the actual reaction chamber a couple of decks directly below it.
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Old June 4 2013, 06:35 PM   #113
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Re: What's Up with the Warp Core (SPOILERS Into Darkness)

Christopher wrote: View Post
No -- the concept of an EPS conduit wasn't created until eight years later, so that's an anachronistic interpretation.
OK Thanks. EPS conduit was the easiest way I could think to explain it. Much of what I was trying to explain is what I recall, or think I recall from reading Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise. I think his cut away showed the intermix chamber. The lower part contained matter and anitmatter bottles at the bottom of the ship.Then Three decks above was a long unsegmented section of the intermix chamber. I thought he said that was where the matter and antimatter mix and then makes it's way up and through the rest of the system. But the swirl concept makes sense. I'll have to rewatch TMP. I cannot remember of the pictures showed all the way around the intermix chamber below main engineering.
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Old June 4 2013, 06:53 PM   #114
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Re: What's Up with the Warp Core (SPOILERS Into Darkness)

On first viewing of TMP, I assumed that the whole glowing tube was a conduit bringing power down from the nacelles, and that the M/AM reaction actually occurred in the nacelles, since it was at least arguably the intent in TOS and TAS for the reaction to be occurring there.

It wasn't until I got the NCC-1701 refit cutaway poster that it became clear. I don't think there's anything in any of the films themselves that settles where the M/AM reaction occurs on the refit Enterprise; one could arguably make the same claim for both TOS and TAS, despite strong suggestive evidence otherwise.

I must say I like my original assumption better, since it meshes better with how I'd always understood the TOS engines to operate, but with the invention of the warp core for TNG, etc., and then it being in ENT, and now in STID, that ship has pretty much sailed.
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Old June 4 2013, 07:57 PM   #115
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Re: What's Up with the Warp Core (SPOILERS Into Darkness)

throwback wrote: View Post
I can accept the warp core, if it didn't require a crew to climb the bloody thing to fix it. Why wasn't a more practical and safe solution not devised?
Plus, to expand on what Christopher was saying, [nerd] it isn't a stretch to think that in space-dock a prefab scaffolding could be beamed in to fit precisely around it for scheduled maintenance. The ship also probably has a scaffold in storage for ease of access if there is trouble while underway. (after a radiation purge, of course.)

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The kicking is a tough nut to crack in universe. I mean what reason could there possibly be for that emitter thingy, where perfect alignment at all times would seem a critical requirement, to be attached to a ball joint?
If it was a ball joint, he would have kicked it sideways, not down.

He wasn't kicking it so much as STOMPING on it trying to push it back into place. I had to do the same thing once about a year ago when the hood of my car wouldn't close.
It did appear he was applying a more downward force but my use of the term ball joint was based on how I saw the emitter laying over slightly to the left and his efforts caused it to seemingly 'rotate up' into the correct position.

I mean, clearly, it wasn't a case of the emitter being aligned on a vertical axis but being too close to the top emitter and needing to be kicked into a lower state.

Here's the thing, though, neither of our theory's about that matters. The crux of the matter in my original statement was why would the damn thing be movable in the first place? (don't really care, just having fun

Phily B wrote: View Post
cooleddie74 wrote: View Post
The only things missing were a ripped shirt and the classic TOS fight or dramatic scene music.

A little "dah-dah-DAH-DAH-DAH-DAH" would have been sweet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6g234BRvKdk#t=1m55s

can't believe you missed that
OMG!
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Old June 4 2013, 08:01 PM   #116
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Re: What's Up with the Warp Core (SPOILERS Into Darkness)

Oh, I knew about Giacchino's nod to the classic TOS fight music being in the new soundtrack. Good stuff. I meant the original music itself. nuKirk doing something dramatic as the legendary music blared in the background would have been worth the full price of a ticket all by itself.
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Old June 4 2013, 08:01 PM   #117
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Re: What's Up with the Warp Core (SPOILERS Into Darkness)

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
I don't think there's anything in any of the films themselves that settles where the M/AM reaction occurs on the refit Enterprise; one could arguably make the same claim for both TOS and TAS, despite strong suggestive evidence otherwise.
I don't think TWOK's radiation room scene makes any sense if the M/AM reaction is in the nacelles instead of right there in main engineering. If that were the case, then Spock would need to work up in the nacelle(s), as that's where both reactor and engine is.

Not that it makes any sense as-is... but it makes less sense that way.
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Old June 4 2013, 08:16 PM   #118
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Re: What's Up with the Warp Core (SPOILERS Into Darkness)

ATimson wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
I don't think there's anything in any of the films themselves that settles where the M/AM reaction occurs on the refit Enterprise; one could arguably make the same claim for both TOS and TAS, despite strong suggestive evidence otherwise.
I don't think TWOK's radiation room scene makes any sense if the M/AM reaction is in the nacelles instead of right there in main engineering. If that were the case, then Spock would need to work up in the nacelle(s), as that's where both reactor and engine is.

Not that it makes any sense as-is... but it makes less sense that way.
Not necessarily. We don't know why the engines are offline in TWOK, at that point in the film.

Maybe the refit analogs of the dilithium crystals shown in Elaan of Troyius just need to be put back into place. Maybe that's what Spock is fiddling with in the thing he opens: some crystals in some sort of setting. That would be consistent with everything we see and hear on screen in TWOK. We never get a good look inside the thing he opens, and they never say on screen what it is, either, IIRC.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not arguing for the layout to be different from what we know it to be. But we "know" what it is based on all the various tie-in material and statements of intent from the designers, not from what's shown on screen.
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Old June 4 2013, 08:55 PM   #119
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Re: What's Up with the Warp Core (SPOILERS Into Darkness)

The Keeper wrote: View Post
Here's the thing, though, neither of our theory's about that matters. The crux of the matter in my original statement was why would the damn thing be movable in the first place?
I don't think it was movable. It just moved because of the shock.
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Old June 4 2013, 09:40 PM   #120
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Re: What's Up with the Warp Core (SPOILERS Into Darkness)

^Right. It was knocked out of alignment and needed to be put back into place before it could function.
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