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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old June 3 2013, 06:26 PM   #16
Zameaze
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Re: Morality and the Holodeck - slightly different question

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
And I did say that the computer should let the holodeck program run, but still notify anybody being simulated in it.
Are you sure you want to program the ship's computer to be a snitch just to protect your ego and curiosity?
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Old June 3 2013, 09:13 PM   #17
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Re: Morality and the Holodeck - slightly different question

R. Star wrote: View Post
just because something can or may happen, doesn't justify an invasion of privacy.
Why is it important to protect the privacy of holodeck users, but NOT the privacy of those being simulated? Their concerns are just as important.
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Old June 3 2013, 09:32 PM   #18
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Re: Morality and the Holodeck - slightly different question

Nothing about the privacy of the party being simulated is in jeopardy. His or her personal existence is not being affected in any way - indeed, thanks solely to the simulating party's privacy remaining unviolated.

If any violation of privacy took place, this happened before the simulation, with the simulating party obtaining knowledge of the target. But the knowledge required for making, say, Barclay's "Goddess of Empathy" cannot be considered "private" by any stretch of the word, or else we would all be having our eyes surgically removed at birth to prevent the possibility of violating each other's right to remain unseen.

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Old June 3 2013, 09:46 PM   #19
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Re: Morality and the Holodeck - slightly different question

^ So are you saying Troi has no right to be pissed at Barclay for making the Goddess of Empathy?
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Old June 3 2013, 09:47 PM   #20
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Re: Morality and the Holodeck - slightly different question

After she barged in on his private holodeck session? Not really.
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Old June 3 2013, 09:49 PM   #21
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Re: Morality and the Holodeck - slightly different question

^ If Barclay's program really was private, then the computer wouldn't let anyone else use it. The very fact that others were able to enter the program proves that it's meant for public use; the computer could easily refuse entry to anyone who isn't authorized to view it.
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Old June 3 2013, 09:57 PM   #22
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Re: Morality and the Holodeck - slightly different question

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ If Barclay's program really was private, then the computer wouldn't let anyone else use it. The very fact that others were able to enter the program proves that it's meant for public use; the computer could easily refuse entry to anyone who isn't authorized to view it.
Riker was seen operating the control panel before the doors opened. So one assumes as first officer he was overriding the locking mechanism... a guy as shy as Barclay is definitely going to lock the doors, especially given the personal nature of his programs.
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Old June 3 2013, 09:59 PM   #23
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Re: Morality and the Holodeck - slightly different question

^ Oh. Okay then.

What about Leah Brahms? She clearly WAS pissed at Geordi for simulating her, and his program was not (that I'm aware of) private.
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Old June 3 2013, 10:05 PM   #24
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Re: Morality and the Holodeck - slightly different question

^ So are you saying Troi has no right to be pissed at Barclay for making the Goddess of Empathy?
I'm saying the issue has absolutely nothing to do with privacy, is all.

^ If Barclay's program really was private, then the computer wouldn't let anyone else use it.
That's a moot point because LaForge would have had access to the holodeck quite regardless of any laws. He's a card-carrying murderer, for chrissakes! Civilian law is not going to be an issue if he tells the holodeck to ignore privacy settings.

Indeed, we learn the point of law in this very episode. Riker claims that Barclay is in violation of protocol, but LaForge says there's nothing in the regulations that would stop Barclay from doing what he's doing. Riker accedes the point, huffing that "there ought to be"... So, Starfleet's fine with it, civilian law is fine with it, and our officers just have personal problems with it.

It would seem holodecks aboard starships are somewhat new, so the protocol isn't well-evolved yet. Private holosystems at people's homes (these have been around since Janeway's childhood, and perhaps much longer) would not require the sort of morality rules that public holodecks aboard a military vessel would.

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Old June 3 2013, 10:08 PM   #25
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Re: Morality and the Holodeck - slightly different question

The computer happily gave Geordi a holo image of Brahms and her personality(admittedly with some flaws). That picture of her and her biography were all public record anyways. So I can't see any legal issues there. Geordi was using it as a "diagnostic" program. So Geordi pretty much screwed up there. That was the equivalent of using a work computer to look up porn while on the clock then a coworker finds out about it. All the more awkward being it was her, true.

You can argue it's questionable to simulate a real person. I wouldn't feel right about it myself. But there's nothing illegal about it. Today we live in an age where you can't walk a block down the street without being observed by half a dozen cameras and nearly every person has a pocket sized camera built into their phone. It's only going to get more widespread in 300 years. What you look like is pretty much accessible by anyone.
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Old June 3 2013, 10:11 PM   #26
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Re: Morality and the Holodeck - slightly different question

They weren't cracking evilly as they went into the holodeck to find out all his deepest and darkest holodeck fantasies. They were just worried and wanted to find out where he was.

Also I get the feeling as XO, Riker can open any locked door on the Enterprise, or ask his buddy security chief Worf to do it for him. A locked door wasn't going to stop him.
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Old June 3 2013, 10:18 PM   #27
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Re: Morality and the Holodeck - slightly different question

Riker wasn't worried, he was pissed. LaForge asked Troi to come along because he knew it was about to hit the fan with him personally, so him being worried would be accurate enough.

Barclay did screw up by falling asleep on the holodeck and not showing up to work. No question about it. But if you're on your computer playing video games and lose track of time, that doesn't give your employer the right to break down the door and access your personal computer to find out what you've been doing.
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Old June 3 2013, 10:22 PM   #28
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Re: Morality and the Holodeck - slightly different question

Also I get the feeling as XO, Riker can open any locked door on the Enterprise, or ask his buddy security chief Worf to do it for him.
We've certainly seen LaForge do it before, and he was there every time in "Hollow Pursuits".

As for "Booby Trap", LaForge called forth an expert program with a visual avatar, which sounded like a routine thing to do. He then asked the computer to extrapolate a personality for the avatar, just for convenience, which sounded like a thing many people would do but many would not bother with and many would not have the proper resources (i.e. starship computers) for. The Computer claimed that the extrapolation was mostly accurate, and LaForge didn't call for any "smitten at me" or "really likes anal sex" extras, so we're supposed to think we saw the real Leah Brahms...

...That is, we saw a true representation of the public face of Leah Brahms. By definition, that's public property, and it's how Leah wants people to think of her. Well, Geordi thinks of her that way, here and in "Galaxy's Child" still. There's no indication that LaForge would be treading on private ground in any fashion, then - his fault is in trusting Brahms' public image.

But if you're on your computer playing video games and lose track of time, that doesn't give your employer the right to break down the door and access your personal computer to find out what you've been doing.
Except in Starfleet, it probably does. It's the military, after all, and we explicitly know they still do things the old-fashioned way where civilians have moved on to more "evolved" approaches. For failing to show up to work in time, you might well lose all privacy and liberty and, say, be sent to forced labor without food or hygiene for the next 8 hours. Tuvok did some of that stuff in "Learning Curve", remember?

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Old June 3 2013, 11:14 PM   #29
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Re: Morality and the Holodeck - slightly different question

R. Star wrote: View Post
But if you're on your computer playing video games and lose track of time, that doesn't give your employer the right to break down the door and access your personal computer to find out what you've been doing.
It's not Barclay's computer. It's Starfleet's computer.
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Old June 4 2013, 12:37 AM   #30
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Re: Morality and the Holodeck - slightly different question

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ But fantasies can affect a person's real life, I would imagine. You spend enough time fantasising about somebody, it's going to affect how you feel about that person IRL.

And I did say that the computer should let the holodeck program run, but still notify anybody being simulated in it. If somebody simulates me on a holodeck, that's much more than thoughts. It's actions. I have the right to know, if they do that. Holosimulation of somebody without their consent is an invasion of that person's privacy.

And let's face it, if you are operating a holodeck program and you actually let people in who are being simulated in that program, you deserve any nasty remarks they give you in return.
This.

I had an online scuffle with somebody who skeeved me out, and one of his ways to "get back at me" was to write horror fanfics about me being brutally murdered by Freddy Krueger.

Let's just say I made it clear that if this person ever came near me, he would be escorted away in a squad car. He's been banned from several sites and forums for his behavior. I hope I NEVER meet him.

Sorry for the OT.


ON TOPIC NOW...

I really think if someone's likeness is being used in a holoprogram, the subject should know. I'd be very upset and feel invaded if somebody was using my likeness in a porn program or something. Really, I'd rather CHOOSE who gets to see me naked!

Now a prank program where nobody gets hurt or naked would be pretty funny. Imagine walking into a holosuite and having Data's likeness spammed everywhere.

...oh wait.

(Now I really want to rickroll a holosuite...)
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