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Old June 1 2013, 03:23 AM   #16
Charles Phipps
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Re: Abrams chronology and canon questions

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Have you looked at the variations in humans lately?
Indeed. I never thought we needed Klingon retcons (I'm a Doylist versus a Watsonian) because it's just a show but I think the idea the Klingons are just diverse is something which gets overlooked.
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Old June 1 2013, 03:32 AM   #17
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Re: Abrams chronology and canon questions

Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
One of my favorite retcons before Enterprise (it was for my home tabletop RPG) is the variation on Klingon appearances is due to Klingons having multiple subraces and citizen races referred to as Klingon.
I hinted at something like that in Ex Machina (which was written before "Affliction"/'Divergence"). To some extent it's still reasonable to assume they have more variants than just regular and QuchHa', since there are so many different types of ridged Klingon that we've seen. For instance, the TMP Klingons had foreheads unlike any others, and the later movie Klingons had much more sexual dimorphism, with very subtle ridges on the females.
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Old June 1 2013, 07:45 AM   #18
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Re: Abrams chronology and canon questions

ATimson wrote: View Post
Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Has Bajoran been specified? The daughter has a Bajoran-like nose ridge.
Nothing in the text. I'm still treating her as human (and the ridges as an art error) until a later comic establishes otherwise.
When today we've got people having leopard skin tattoos over their entire body, having horn's implanted on their foreheads, having their tongues split to resemble lizards and numerous other body modifications I would imagine in a world with real aliens for inspiration there's a fair numer of people that have surgery to resemble and number of alien races.

For all we know only 10% of the aliens we see in that background are actually aliens. The rest could be altered humans.

http://justereaders.com/2011/04/vamp...rns-implanted/

http://www.tattoostime.com/leopard-s...-on-full-body/
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Old June 1 2013, 03:51 PM   #19
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Re: Abrams chronology and canon questions

One humorous line in "Shocks of Adversity" had an alien surprised that Spock wasn't human and attributing his ears to genetic variation.
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Old June 1 2013, 08:26 PM   #20
Charles Phipps
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Re: Abrams chronology and canon questions

FMI (for my information), how many years in-universe to Hobus in the Lit verse?
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Old June 1 2013, 09:35 PM   #21
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Re: Abrams chronology and canon questions

^I think I heard recently that The Fall takes us into 2385.
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Old June 1 2013, 10:19 PM   #22
Charles Phipps
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Re: Abrams chronology and canon questions

Ah, so two years left. It's like a ticking clock of doom isn't it?
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Old June 1 2013, 11:11 PM   #23
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Re: Abrams chronology and canon questions

Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
Ah, so two years left. It's like a ticking clock of doom isn't it?
The novels don't have to actually cover the event. Once past the date Ambassador Spock will simply stop dropping into crossover stories and random Romulans and Remans may mention New Romulus as a destination.
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Old June 2 2013, 02:19 AM   #24
Charles Phipps
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Re: Abrams chronology and canon questions

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
Ah, so two years left. It's like a ticking clock of doom isn't it?
The novels don't have to actually cover the event. Once past the date Ambassador Spock will simply stop dropping into crossover stories and random Romulans and Remans may mention New Romulus as a destination.


That is the face of a Reman laughing at me. But no, seriously, ever since the Titan books I've been mostly waiting for a chance for the Romulans to be shut up. It'd be nice to see them actually changed as a race.
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Old June 2 2013, 03:42 AM   #25
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Re: Abrams chronology and canon questions

ATimson wrote: View Post
Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Has Bajoran been specified? The daughter has a Bajoran-like nose ridge.
Nothing in the text. I'm still treating her as human (and the ridges as an art error) until a later comic establishes otherwise.
This same issue came up in the ongoing comic thread and I feel I need to ask: why is this a problem?

When I read CiD, I thought, "Oh, Harry Mudd has a daughter in this timeline and she's part-Bajoran." I didn't take issue with this and saw no reason to doubt it. However multiple posters have expressed a vehement opposition to this idea, questioning the implications of her nose ridges and her exact relationship to Harry.

Please bear in mind that I have no objections to people not accepting her as Bajoran or Harry's daughter in their own personal continuities. To each their own.

I would just like to hear some people's reasoning behind this stance.

Is it too early in the timeline for encounters with Bajorans? I thought the Cardassian name drop in the '09 film opened the door for an earlier introduction of Bajor to the nuTrek universe, but maybe I'm wrong.

Do the opposers feel that it should have been Harry in the comic and not his daughter? My thinking is that the film writers wanted to leave the door open for them to possibly introduce Harry Mudd in some future sequel if they so desired so they came up with the idea of using his daughter for the name recognition and made her Bajoran just to add a little alien flavor. They probably chose Bajoran because nose ridges would be easy to identify for old school Trek fans (CiD's primary readership demographic).

I've read the argument that her being Bajoran doesn't service the story in any way. True enough, I suppose, but the same could be said about the Doctor's bow tie in Doctor Who. Sometimes details are added just because they're a cool thing to toss into the mix, to paraphrase the great Walter Bishop, and I think the Mudd girl's nose ridges are just that -- a cool little detail that hints at a much larger Trek universe just beyond the edge of the page.

But again, I am very curious to hear an opposing viewpoint on this issue if anyone has the time or inclination. Thanks to any that respond.
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Old June 2 2013, 03:55 AM   #26
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Re: Abrams chronology and canon questions

Sto-Vo-Kory wrote: View Post
ATimson wrote: View Post
Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Has Bajoran been specified? The daughter has a Bajoran-like nose ridge.
Nothing in the text. I'm still treating her as human (and the ridges as an art error) until a later comic establishes otherwise.
This same issue came up in the ongoing comic thread and I feel I need to ask: why is this a problem?

When I read CiD, I thought, "Oh, Harry Mudd has a daughter in this timeline and she's part-Bajoran." I didn't take issue with this and saw no reason to doubt it. However multiple posters have expressed a vehement opposition to this idea, questioning the implications of her nose ridges and her exact relationship to Harry.

Please bear in mind that I have no objections to people not accepting her as Bajoran or Harry's daughter in their own personal continuities. To each their own.

I would just like to hear some people's reasoning behind this stance.

Is it too early in the timeline for encounters with Bajorans? I thought the Cardassian name drop in the '09 film opened the door for an earlier introduction of Bajor to the nuTrek universe, but maybe I'm wrong.

Do the opposers feel that it should have been Harry in the comic and not his daughter? My thinking is that the film writers wanted to leave the door open for them to possibly introduce Harry Mudd in some future sequel if they so desired so they came up with the idea of using his daughter for the name recognition and made her Bajoran just to add a little alien flavor. They probably chose Bajoran because nose ridges would be easy to identify for old school Trek fans (CiD's primary readership demographic).

I've read the argument that her being Bajoran doesn't service the story in any way. True enough, I suppose, but the same could be said about the Doctor's bow tie in Doctor Who. Sometimes details are added just because they're a cool thing to toss into the mix, to paraphrase the great Walter Bishop, and I think the Mudd girl's nose ridges are just that -- a cool little detail that hints at a much larger Trek universe just beyond the edge of the page.

But again, I am very curious to hear an opposing viewpoint on this issue if anyone has the time or inclination. Thanks to any that respond.
All things considered, it seems likely that when the "Mudd incident" was mentioned in the movie, it is meant to be a reference to Harry Mudd. Hell, the shis even resembles the blip seen in the original version of Mudd's Women.

It all comes down it being unnecessary. Why didn't they just use Harry Mudd? Hell, if they wanted a woman, they could have just given him a sex change. Instead we have a Bajoran woman implied to be his daughter for no apparent reason.

Although I guess it's possible IDW may revisit the character and perhaps work Harry into the story. After Darkness does feature Captain April's return, sort of. Maybe we'll get some answers after all.
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Old June 2 2013, 04:02 AM   #27
Christopher
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Re: Abrams chronology and canon questions

Sto-Vo-Kory wrote: View Post
When I read CiD, I thought, "Oh, Harry Mudd has a daughter in this timeline and she's part-Bajoran." I didn't take issue with this and saw no reason to doubt it. However multiple posters have expressed a vehement opposition to this idea, questioning the implications of her nose ridges and her exact relationship to Harry.

Please bear in mind that I have no objections to people not accepting her as Bajoran or Harry's daughter in their own personal continuities. To each their own.

I would just like to hear some people's reasoning behind this stance.
My main reason for skepticism is that Roger C. Carmel was a year and a half younger than William Shatner, though he looked older. Harry would've had to be substantially older than his portrayer in order to have an adult daughter at a time when Kirk's nearly 26. I could buy that Harry was in his early 40s when we met him in 2266, about a decade older than his portrayer, but that would put him in his upper 30s at the time of Countdown to Darkness. It's not out of the question that someone that age could have an adult daughter, if he'd been under 20 when he conceived her, but that's kind of pushing the limits of probability.

For what it's worth, though, an early draft of "Mudd's Women" put Harry's age at 47 (decades before that number became a recurring Trek meme!).


Is it too early in the timeline for encounters with Bajorans?
A certain recent TOS novel,
Mudd would've had to encounter them nearly 3 decades sooner.
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Old June 2 2013, 04:32 AM   #28
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Re: Abrams chronology and canon questions

Christopher wrote: View Post
Is it too early in the timeline for encounters with Bajorans?
A certain recent TOS novel,
Mudd would've had to encounter them nearly 3 decades sooner.
That's the official first contact between the Federation and Bajor, right? 23rd century Bajor was an active starfaring power of some note; it's not inconceivable that a lone human on the frontier might have run into them.

There's still plenty of space for individuals from the Federation to come into contact with the Bajorans without making official contact on behalf of the Federation. I see no conflict.
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Old June 2 2013, 04:36 AM   #29
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Re: Abrams chronology and canon questions

Maybe this is one of the many changes brought about by the destruction of the Kelvin. I could see Starfleet exploring farther, and faster after the destruction of the Kelvin, and run into the Bajorans earlier.
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Old June 2 2013, 04:36 AM   #30
Charles Phipps
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Re: Abrams chronology and canon questions

I think the main issue is that the Star Trek universe is filling in very quickly and people don't believe it is IMPOSSIBLY HUGE. I've always felt that there's nothing preventing Kirk or whoever from finding a vast Federation-sized entity right next to the Romulans no one has ever seen or heard of before because that's what space is like (at least in Star Trek).

Others are really annoyed at the fact Enterprise steamrolled around the Trek universe so the Klingons were found very early and so was virtually everyone else, which really confused a lot of people who expected space to be a great unknown. Nevermind the Vulcans sharing star charts.

Also, is she Bajoran? Are the Bajorans the only wrinkle-nose aliens?
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