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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old June 1 2013, 11:21 PM   #61
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

Ryan certainly didn't save Voyager's ratings but it did temporarily curb the rate of decline.

Janeway's ship was under siege because they happened to wave the same flag as a ship that was murdering innocent aliens. I think her actions are justified. She's not always a pragmatist but she would go to any extent to protect her crew.
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Old June 2 2013, 12:30 AM   #62
JarodRussell
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

Janeway was a bad Captain because the writers tried to make her a strong woman. And that never pays off. Same thing happened with Judi Dench's M in the new Bond films. Or President Roslin in nuBSG. They want them to appear strong and determined, and somehow that means that they make bad, morally questionable, controversial decisions. As long as they are tough while making those decision, it's fine.

Janeway is wrong so many times during the show it's not even funny anymore. She sticks to her wrong decisions until almost everyone disagreed with her and tried to talk sense into her.
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Old June 2 2013, 01:01 AM   #63
Guy Gardener
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Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

A controlled decent?

Zameaze wrote: View Post
It's strange that no one in the field is able to interpret those ratings the way you did.

I knew that you couldn't give me one person involved in the series or a newspaper or magazine article from the time to back up you theory, because there aren't any. Sorry.

But for starting from a premise with no facts to back it up, you argued your proffered assumption well.
Rick Berman agrees with me, in the quote you supplied so poorly and referenced inaccurately. A shitty attempt at journalism which shot you in the foot. Rick agrees with me and must think that you are twisting his words inside out to justify your deformed convictions.

Berman said in the news article you referenced an annotation of that after the 60 percent bump that the ratings went down again, a little higher than before, but not 60 percent up. Of course that was 1999, and the ratings continued to go down.

6.5 is larger then 5 which is larger than 4 which is larger than 3.

If you think that 3 is larger than 6 Zameaze, you must be god awful at parallel parking.

This is interesting.


Greg Fuller at the Star Trek Nielsen Ratings Information Database just updated his site with a correction to the report that 'Voyager' caused Trek to have it first season-to-season ratings improvement since TNG ended, improving very slightly over season 5. Unfortunately, it seems a slight mathematical mistake was made in the calculations, meaning that Voyager's ratings actually went down by 4%, still a very much smaller decline than in previous years. Here is the full text of the correction:
The Season 6 statistics were indeed correct: 3.56. The mistake was in your average of Season 5. When adding all the first run episodes, you divided by 26. That is understandible considering there are 26 episodes a season. However, you failed to recognize that Dark Frontiers, a UPN telemovie, is counted as TWO episodes. When adding all the ratings and counting Dark Frontiers once, you get aseason rating of 3.55. But, you can see this math is wrong. The average is saying Dark Frontiers received a 4.7 divided in half, or two 2.35's. This would be considerably incorrect. You should instead either add all the ratings, counting Dark Frontiers as one episode, and divide by 25, getting a Season 5 average of 3.62, or count Dark Frontier's 4.7 average twice and divide by 26, getting a Season 5 average of 3.66. Both show a considerable DECREASE in viewership from Season 5 to Season 6, and not the increase you are reporting here.
Greg's May ratings report has been updated with the new info. Of course, this is only a change of a few per cent, and it's due to last year's ratings turning out better than thought, but it's still unfortunate 'Voyager' wasn't able to break this seven-year ratings decline.
meanwhile there's this from IMDB

The introduction of Seven of Nine is sometimes credited with saving the series from possible cancellation after its first few seasons, as the sexy character sparked a revival of publicity in the show. In reality however, her arrival did little to increase ratings aside from the first few episodes in which she appeared, afterwards the show's ratings continued to drop below the levels of the previous season.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112178/trivia

But who the hell knows who wrote that.

You're asking me to find evidence that a bunch of nice people are secretly assholes bitching and backstabbing their friends and work-family? I suppose there's Beltran, but everyone else is far too classy to say a bad word about their meal ticket to the press and the internet.

Voyager had a consistent rating of 3(ish) for most of it's final season.

Scorpion II scored a 6.5

Caretaker scored a 13.

No one needs an insider to tell us that there was a significant decline in the ratings because this is 13

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13

and this is three

1
2
3

And one of them is larger than the other.

(It's 13. 13 is larger than 3.)
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Old June 2 2013, 01:46 AM   #64
Zameaze
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Location: California
Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

Captain Kathryn wrote: View Post

As for who was the better captain...how can you truly compare the two....
The same way you can compare the morality of the Marquis de Sade with that of Tomás de Torquemada.

Captain Kathryn wrote:
As for acting, I prefer Kate Mulgrew also, however I think Avery Brook is also a fine actor.
Maybe I should rephrase my original comment: Kate Mulgrew is a good actress; Avery Brook couldn't act his way out of a paper bag.
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Old June 2 2013, 01:54 AM   #65
Dream
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

What are you talking about? Sisko's

"It's REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLL!"

Was comedy gold!
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Old June 2 2013, 02:14 AM   #66
Captain Kathryn
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

Dream wrote: View Post
What are you talking about? Sisko's

"It's REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLL!"

Was comedy gold!
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Old June 2 2013, 02:50 AM   #67
Zameaze
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Location: California
Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
A controlled decent?

Zameaze wrote: View Post
It's strange that no one in the field is able to interpret those ratings the way you did.

I knew that you couldn't give me one person involved in the series or a newspaper or magazine article from the time to back up you theory, because there aren't any. Sorry.

But for starting from a premise with no facts to back it up, you argued your proffered assumption well.
Rick Berman agrees with me, in the quote you supplied so poorly and referenced inaccurately. A shitty attempt at journalism which shot you in the foot. Rick agrees with me and must think that you are twisting his words inside out to justify your deformed convictions.

Berman said in the news article you referenced an annotation of that after the 60 percent bump that the ratings went down again, a little higher than before, but not 60 percent up. Of course that was 1999, and the ratings continued to go down.

6.5 is larger then 5 which is larger than 4 which is larger than 3.

If you think that 3 is larger than 6 Zameaze, you must be god awful at parallel parking.

This is interesting.


Greg Fuller at the Star Trek Nielsen Ratings Information Database just updated his site with a correction to the report that 'Voyager' caused Trek to have it first season-to-season ratings improvement since TNG ended, improving very slightly over season 5. Unfortunately, it seems a slight mathematical mistake was made in the calculations, meaning that Voyager's ratings actually went down by 4%, still a very much smaller decline than in previous years. Here is the full text of the correction:
The Season 6 statistics were indeed correct: 3.56. The mistake was in your average of Season 5. When adding all the first run episodes, you divided by 26. That is understandible considering there are 26 episodes a season. However, you failed to recognize that Dark Frontiers, a UPN telemovie, is counted as TWO episodes. When adding all the ratings and counting Dark Frontiers once, you get aseason rating of 3.55. But, you can see this math is wrong. The average is saying Dark Frontiers received a 4.7 divided in half, or two 2.35's. This would be considerably incorrect. You should instead either add all the ratings, counting Dark Frontiers as one episode, and divide by 25, getting a Season 5 average of 3.62, or count Dark Frontier's 4.7 average twice and divide by 26, getting a Season 5 average of 3.66. Both show a considerable DECREASE in viewership from Season 5 to Season 6, and not the increase you are reporting here.
Greg's May ratings report has been updated with the new info. Of course, this is only a change of a few per cent, and it's due to last year's ratings turning out better than thought, but it's still unfortunate 'Voyager' wasn't able to break this seven-year ratings decline.
meanwhile there's this from IMDB

The introduction of Seven of Nine is sometimes credited with saving the series from possible cancellation after its first few seasons, as the sexy character sparked a revival of publicity in the show. In reality however, her arrival did little to increase ratings aside from the first few episodes in which she appeared, afterwards the show's ratings continued to drop below the levels of the previous season.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112178/trivia

But who the hell knows who wrote that.

You're asking me to find evidence that a bunch of nice people are secretly assholes bitching and backstabbing their friends and work-family? I suppose there's Beltran, but everyone else is far too classy to say a bad word about their meal ticket to the press and the internet.

Voyager had a consistent rating of 3(ish) for most of it's final season.

Scorpion II scored a 6.5

Caretaker scored a 13.

No one needs an insider to tell us that there was a significant decline in the ratings because this is 13

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13

and this is three

1
2
3

And one of them is larger than the other.

(It's 13. 13 is larger than 3.)
I skimmed through this post but didn't find much.

Really? You claim as a source: IMDb Star Trek: Voyager (1995–2001) Trivia. These are contributions from the readers. And the woman's statement that you quote begrudgingly admits a rise in ratings for Ryan's first few episodes.

You keep repeating the self evident: the ratings went down until the show was cancelled. Do you think you are saying something profound? Of course they did: The show was cancelled. It certainly doesn't negate the fact that Jeri Ryan boosted Voyager's ratings when she entered the cast.

But to give the devil his due, if I had started from where you did, I couldn't have gotten much farther.
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Old June 2 2013, 03:02 AM   #68
eskyliz
Lieutenant Junior Grade
 
Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

Dream wrote: View Post
What are you talking about? Sisko's

"It's REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLL!"

Was comedy gold!
Oh man, I was bawling my eyes out at that point. That episode still brings me to tears every time I watch it. And I watch it a lot.
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Old June 2 2013, 03:04 AM   #69
Zameaze
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Location: California
Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

Captain Kathryn wrote: View Post
Dream wrote: View Post
What are you talking about? Sisko's

"It's REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLL!"

Was comedy gold!
Ah, your comment brings back such fond memories:

It's a fake!! No... ITS REAAAL!!!!!

DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND, IT...IS...REEEAAALLLL!
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Old June 2 2013, 03:44 AM   #70
Guy Gardener
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

Zameaze wrote: View Post
I skimmed through this post but didn't find much.

Really? You claim as a source: IMDb Star Trek: Voyager (1995–2001) Trivia. These are contributions from the readers. And the woman's statement that you quote begrudgingly admits a rise in ratings for Ryan's first few episodes.

You keep repeating the self evident: the ratings went down until the show was cancelled. Do you think you are saying something profound? Of course they did: The show was cancelled. It certainly doesn't negate the fact that Jeri Ryan boosted Voyager's ratings when she entered the cast.

But to give the devil his due, if I had started from where you did, I couldn't have gotten much farther.
I already said that the IMDB quote is bullshit, the statistics quote is not and the New York times quote is not. And I have always said that Jeri's first episodes which had 17 cubes, 8472 and 4 months of intensive advertising between seaosn 3 and 4 did have the 60 percent bump Berman says it did, but then ratings fell, and fell and felling. The ratings went up for one story. That's a blip not a trend.

Your steadfast point of view to this point is that the ratings didn't go down.

Or that you can identify how the ratings went down slower because Seven of Nine drew in millions of new viewers.

The only thing I have ever said is that the ratings went down, and the only thing you have ever said is that I can't prove that the ratings went down because the ratings don't reflect the ratings.

And you have repeatedly called me an idiot for saying that the ratings went down until you finally just admitted now that the ratings went down and that I was an idiot for clambering about the self-evident decline in ratings, when that's all you've been fighting for the last two days.

The ratings went down.

Seven didn't save the show.

Jeri sleeping with Brannon Bragga probably helped, but until the sex tape comes out there's no proof that either of them had a realtionship other than that it was completely public and and they confirmed it at every turn.

If you NOW agree that the ratings went down, if you have always agreed that the ratings went down, what the fuck has been your reason for saying that the ratings didn't do down and that only an insider can clarify what the ratings really mean?

What exactly is this magical non exsistent quote you wanted me to find?

What the hell do you think I have been trying to say other than that the ratings have been going down?
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Old June 2 2013, 06:16 AM   #71
JirinPanthosa
Commodore
 
Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Janeway was a bad Captain because the writers tried to make her a strong woman. And that never pays off. Same thing happened with Judi Dench's M in the new Bond films. Or President Roslin in nuBSG. They want them to appear strong and determined, and somehow that means that they make bad, morally questionable, controversial decisions. As long as they are tough while making those decision, it's fine.

Janeway is wrong so many times during the show it's not even funny anymore. She sticks to her wrong decisions until almost everyone disagreed with her and tried to talk sense into her.
I disagree about Roslin, I thought she was an extremely well written character. The only really bad decision she made was not stealing the election from Baltar.

But yeah, most screenwriters tend to think 'Strong woman' means either 'A man with boobs' or 'A woman who provokes people arbitrarily'.

In the case of Janeway her wrong decisions tend to all carry the same theme: "We must get home at all costs, but we must also not defy our principles". And that was written into the character so early the writers could not have ignored it.

And whatever problems Janeway had, she was way better than Archer. At least Janeway had ways of expressing herself besides tilting her head slightly, crunching her nose a little and acting indignant.
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Old June 2 2013, 06:28 AM   #72
Zameaze
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Zameaze wrote: View Post
I skimmed through this post but didn't find much.

Really? You claim as a source: IMDb Star Trek: Voyager (1995–2001) Trivia. These are contributions from the readers. And the woman's statement that you quote begrudgingly admits a rise in ratings for Ryan's first few episodes.

You keep repeating the self evident: the ratings went down until the show was cancelled. Do you think you are saying something profound? Of course they did: The show was cancelled. It certainly doesn't negate the fact that Jeri Ryan boosted Voyager's ratings when she entered the cast.

But to give the devil his due, if I had started from where you did, I couldn't have gotten much farther.
I already said that the IMDB quote is bullshit, the statistics quote is not and the New York times quote is not. And I have always said that Jeri's first episodes which had 17 cubes, 8472 and 4 months of intensive advertising between seaosn 3 and 4 did have the 60 percent bump Berman says it did, but then ratings fell, and fell and felling. The ratings went up for one story. That's a blip not a trend.
Then we're in agreement.

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Your steadfast point of view to this point is that the ratings didn't go down.
Not at all; I never said that.


Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
The only thing I have ever said is that the ratings went down, and the only thing you have ever said is that I can't prove that the ratings went down because the ratings don't reflect the ratings.
That was never my point. I never said that.

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
And you have repeatedly called me an idiot for saying that the ratings went down....
From the first I said that the ratings going down was, of course, an incontrovertible fact. I was perplexed as to why you kept repeating it.

I had a professor who use to say, "we all use the same vocabulary but have different dictionaries."
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Old June 2 2013, 06:32 AM   #73
Lt. Uhura-Brown
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Location: New Zealand
Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

I thought this was going to be a whole load of sexist "woman driver" jokes.

We only think she's the worst because we have a very very small sample size. Perhaps they're almost all like her and the other captains who we've seen TV shows about are the unique uncharacteristically competent ones?
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Old June 2 2013, 06:49 AM   #74
Zameaze
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Janeway was a bad Captain because the writers tried to make her a strong woman. And that never pays off. Same thing happened with Judi Dench's M in the new Bond films. Or President Roslin in nuBSG. They want them to appear strong and determined, and somehow that means that they make bad, morally questionable, controversial decisions. As long as they are tough while making those decision, it's fine.

Janeway is wrong so many times during the show it's not even funny anymore. She sticks to her wrong decisions until almost everyone disagreed with her and tried to talk sense into her.
It makes you wonder if Freud had something with penis envy. Why do women insist that the men do everything wrong, and then try to emulate them by appropriating their least desirable qualities!
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Old June 2 2013, 07:20 AM   #75
Guy Gardener
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

Saying that there was a weekly increase of %60, is not the same as saying that there was a an increase of %60 for one week. Well it is the same but the former suggests an indeterminate amount of time in which this %60 percent boost persisted, which might have been and was more than likely, but not necessarily longer than one week.

All I ever objected to is that the %60 jump lasted longer than one story, but you somehow decided that I was saying that the %60 percent bump never happened, which is silly.
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