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Fan Productions Creating our own Trek canon!

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Old June 1 2013, 08:45 PM   #181
GSchnitzer
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Re: TOS continues...

beamMe wrote: View Post

You are not seriously comparing Kirk and co. to Abraham Lincoln?

Bringing life again to a real historical figure through the medium film is something else entirely from telling stories about fictional characters.
Yes, I'm seriously comparing a character that you "can't" write about because his established future path is already known with a historical character whom, I guess, you similarly can't write about because his future path is already known. Many of our viewers don't differentiate the kind of immutability of the fictional Trek universe with the kind of immutability of the actual universe.

But you'd need to take it up with them regarding why they think that way.
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Old June 1 2013, 08:47 PM   #182
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Re: TOS continues...

Warped9 wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post
GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
And similarly, of course, no one can really do a compelling or interesting movie about Lincoln, because we already know how that whole thing works out.
You are not seriously comparing Kirk and co. to Abraham Lincoln?

Bringing life again to a real historical figure through the medium film is something else entirely from telling stories about fictional characters.
No, it's an apt comparison. Lincoln's life is documented (largely) although there will always be questions because not every moment of his life is documented. Events in his life can be (and are) dramatized with a measure of creative leeway to make his story and the events compelling. We know the outcome, but we can still chart the events in a compelling way.

In Star Trek it's all fiction. All that is set in stone is what has happened to the characters in TOS' three seasons in so much as they're approaching this as if they are indeed doing the unseen fourth season. They are not constrained by having to acknowledge what was seen in TMP or in any film or series afterward.

Yet even if they do acknowledge the events of TMP and a nod towards TNG they can still do a great many things as long as it's not inconsistent with where they end up in TMP (and as long as it's rationalized in a credible way).

Any of the characters could get married or promoted or whatever as long as they're back the way we see them by the time of TMP.

Or put it another way. Kirk was the hero of the series. It wasn't going to happen that they would kill him off or any of the other series regulars for that matter. That certainly didn't preclude them from telling compelling stories.

Therefore I reiterate that the only creative limitations are self imposed ones rather than in fact.


I sense that what's really being asked here is whether one could apply a Game Of Thrones style of storytelling to TOS. In that regard I would say "no" because that would definitely be straying too far from the kind of storytelling done on TOS and all other television of that era. If the STC producers are limiting themselves in that way then I think they're right in doing so.
Sorry, but telling compelling stories that inevitably have to end up where we know they will end up in a style that hasn't been relevant in a very long time is by definition NOT creative freedom.
There can never be any surprising, unexpected changes or lasting consequences for the characters we really care about.
That's why these fan production have to bring in other characters (Peter Kirk and McKenna, for example) to have at least some wriggle-room.

I wish the fan productions would, like Abrams, put their own stamp on Star Trek. Phase II and, now, Continues have shown that they have talent, and I'm sure they could pull off their own interpretation rather than simply recreating (though they do it with loving devotion and I admire them for their efforts).
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Old June 1 2013, 08:58 PM   #183
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Re: TOS continues...

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post

You are not seriously comparing Kirk and co. to Abraham Lincoln?

Bringing life again to a real historical figure through the medium film is something else entirely from telling stories about fictional characters.
Yes, I'm seriously comparing a character that you "can't" write about because his established future path is already known with a historical character whom, I guess, you similarly can't write about because his future path is already known. Many of our viewers don't differentiate the kind of immutability of the fictional Trek universe with the kind of immutability of the actual universe.

But you'd need to take it up with them regarding why they think that way.
Who said you "can't" write about anyone?
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Old June 1 2013, 09:22 PM   #184
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Re: TOS continues...

beamMe wrote: View Post
GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post

You are not seriously comparing Kirk and co. to Abraham Lincoln?

Bringing life again to a real historical figure through the medium film is something else entirely from telling stories about fictional characters.
Yes, I'm seriously comparing a character that you "can't" write about because his established future path is already known with a historical character whom, I guess, you similarly can't write about because his future path is already known. Many of our viewers don't differentiate the kind of immutability of the fictional Trek universe with the kind of immutability of the actual universe.

But you'd need to take it up with them regarding why they think that way.
Who said you "can't" write about anyone?
Well, I hope I didn't mischaracterize what Halliwell said, but I might have summarized it inartfully.

"From a creative stand point, the TOS fan films are limited to what's already been established with these characters. Unless they do a reboot like JJ-TOS, then we know that the 5 year mission will end. Kirk will get promoted, Spock will go back to Vulcan for Kolinhar, the Enterprise will be refit and Scotty will over see it, and McCoy will leave Starfleet and Kirk won't be captain again until TMP."

I guess she was saying that it would be a challenge, not that it couldn't be done. What I was trying to get at, and I might not have articulated it well enough, is that you can actually tell interesting and compelling stories about characters, real or fictional within the confines of the future that is known to await them. You *can* make Lincoln a part-time vampire slayer, but evidently you don't actually have to reboot him to make an award-winning movie. Maybe this line of thinking only works with historical figures, I guess, and not fictional ones for some reason.

But I suppose it's true: adhering to what is already "known" is "limiting." I just see a pretty blank canvas to work with despite those limitations--even if I'm limited to just that canvas size.
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Old June 1 2013, 09:50 PM   #185
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Re: Star Trek Continues "Pilgrim of Eternity"

Any fanfilm show could, if they so chose, steer hard to starboard of the history, past and future of the Trek universe via any number of mechanisms. There's no "trap" there and no limitations except those which the makers choose to impose on themselves.
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Old June 1 2013, 10:01 PM   #186
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Re: TOS continues...

beamMe wrote: View Post
There can never be any surprising, unexpected changes or lasting consequences for the characters we really care about.
But Trek often served purely as an anthology show. They visited a new civilization each week and THAT was where the novelty was, not so much through long pre-planned character-arcs. I mean, having a show that is almost all bottle-episodes isn't necessarily a bad thing, even though these days dramas have shifted to mostly serial storylines.

TOS really didn't have a lot of lasting consequences for any of the characters. These days you'd probably have call-backs for Edith Keeler, Miramanee, and things like that, but they had Kirk eventually get over his traumatic experiences.

There were only a few isolated episodes that touched on their back-story or were particularly revelatory. Amok Time, Obsession, Shore Leave (with Finnegan) things like that.
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Old June 1 2013, 10:02 PM   #187
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Re: TOS continues...

beamMe wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post

You are not seriously comparing Kirk and co. to Abraham Lincoln?

Bringing life again to a real historical figure through the medium film is something else entirely from telling stories about fictional characters.
No, it's an apt comparison. Lincoln's life is documented (largely) although there will always be questions because not every moment of his life is documented. Events in his life can be (and are) dramatized with a measure of creative leeway to make his story and the events compelling. We know the outcome, but we can still chart the events in a compelling way.

In Star Trek it's all fiction. All that is set in stone is what has happened to the characters in TOS' three seasons in so much as they're approaching this as if they are indeed doing the unseen fourth season. They are not constrained by having to acknowledge what was seen in TMP or in any film or series afterward.

Yet even if they do acknowledge the events of TMP and a nod towards TNG they can still do a great many things as long as it's not inconsistent with where they end up in TMP (and as long as it's rationalized in a credible way).

Any of the characters could get married or promoted or whatever as long as they're back the way we see them by the time of TMP.

Or put it another way. Kirk was the hero of the series. It wasn't going to happen that they would kill him off or any of the other series regulars for that matter. That certainly didn't preclude them from telling compelling stories.

Therefore I reiterate that the only creative limitations are self imposed ones rather than in fact.


I sense that what's really being asked here is whether one could apply a Game Of Thrones style of storytelling to TOS. In that regard I would say "no" because that would definitely be straying too far from the kind of storytelling done on TOS and all other television of that era. If the STC producers are limiting themselves in that way then I think they're right in doing so.
Sorry, but telling compelling stories that inevitably have to end up where we know they will end up in a style that hasn't been relevant in a very long time is by definition NOT creative freedom.
There can never be any surprising, unexpected changes or lasting consequences for the characters we really care about.
That's why these fan production have to bring in other characters (Peter Kirk and McKenna, for example) to have at least some wriggle-room.

I wish the fan productions would, like Abrams, put their own stamp on Star Trek. Phase II and, now, Continues have shown that they have talent, and I'm sure they could pull off their own interpretation rather than simply recreating (though they do it with loving devotion and I admire them for their efforts).
No, the only limitation is the one you perceive in your own mind. You are predisposed to see it that way so you accept it as a fact when it isn't any such thing. And if you want a reinterpretation of the TOS characters and setting then you have JJ Abrams, and therefore I don't see what your beef is.

The fan productions are interested (mostly) in continuing the series that was aborted. They're trying to give fans what they would have liked to have seen. If it isn't what you want to see then there is nothing to be done about it.
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Old June 1 2013, 10:06 PM   #188
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Re: TOS continues...

beamMe wrote: View Post
Sorry, but telling compelling stories that inevitably have to end up where we know they will end up in a style that hasn't been relevant in a very long time is by definition NOT creative freedom.
Huh? Your definition, maybe.

ANY choice of manner or style has limitations, but that choice also has implied directions of creativity too. In addition to standards (Sinatra-esque songs), I write ragtime, which sends me in a specific direction, structure-wise. It's an old idiom, but still enjoyed by many. Is what I've written not creative? I have incorporated mixed meter and some modern harmonies occasionally. But even if not, they would be new melodies and new pieces. I and some other people would still enjoy them. Would they be less creative than minimalism or autotuned pop, because they are newer idioms? I think by your argument Justin Bieber is more creative than my jazz trio playing a new old-style song. I am starting to agree with post-ers above that you are pissing on our parade!

Telling compelling stories like the Apollo one I just watched -- where I really, truly didn't know how it was going to end up -- is certainly creative.

If I needed the characters growing in new ways over many episodes, well, doesn't that invalidate good ol' TOS? It was episodic Sixties TV, and I daresay two more seasons on NBC would have produced . . . two more years of episodic TV and zilch character growth. Character development wasn't the mode. And that is FINE by me. I don't care if they keep Kirk's character "arc" the same or have him give birth to twins named Luke and Leia; just keep telling as humane, fun, and compelling Trek stories as the one I saw last night, and I'll keep enjoying them.
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Old June 1 2013, 10:08 PM   #189
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Re: Star Trek Continues "Pilgrim of Eternity"

^^ The crux of it. If you want to significantly change TOS then why bother doing TOS?
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Old June 1 2013, 10:46 PM   #190
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Re: Star Trek Continues "Pilgrim of Eternity"

Because we want to. If we had the sets and characters but decided to turn the whole of canon on it's head at that point we would. Because that's what we want. It's not that we're bored with it or anything like it, we just want a kind of radical different here.
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Old June 1 2013, 10:47 PM   #191
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Re: Star Trek Continues "Pilgrim of Eternity"

I read so many (wrong) posts here criticising a lack of character development in the last two Star Trek movies, and now you three here tell me character growth doesn't matter?
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Old June 1 2013, 10:50 PM   #192
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Re: Star Trek Continues "Pilgrim of Eternity"

Kruezerman wrote: View Post
Because we want to. If we had the sets and characters but decided to turn the whole of canon on it's head at that point we would. Because that's what we want. It's not that we're bored with it or anything like it, we just want a kind of radical different here.
Then go make your own fan film.
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Old June 1 2013, 11:10 PM   #193
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Re: Star Trek Continues "Pilgrim of Eternity"

The idea that fan films cannot be creative could only come from somebody with a very limited view of fan films. I invite you to come to Star Trek Reviewed and watch the following:
Steam Trek: http://startrekreviewed.blogspot.com/2009/06/7.html
Stone Trek: http://startrekreviewed.blogspot.com/2009/06/8.html
Star Trek Aurora: http://startrekreviewed.blogspot.com/2009/06/8.html
Turkish Star Trek: http://startrekreviewed.blogspot.com/2009/06/28.html
Stalled Trek: http://startrekreviewed.blogspot.com/2009/06/50.html

I have limited myself to what I call "Golden Age" films... but there are many more unique and creative efforts.
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Old June 1 2013, 11:24 PM   #194
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Re: Star Trek Continues "Pilgrim of Eternity"

beamMe wrote: View Post
I read so many (wrong) posts here criticising a lack of character development in the last two Star Trek movies, and now you three here tell me character growth doesn't matter?
I think, for our production at least, we are generally content to show the same amount and kinds of growth in the characters that we saw them undergo back during the 80 hours of Trek in the 1960s. I'm not exactly sure how much of TOS's popularity was driven by character development. I think that Star Trek, like its sister show Mission: Impossible, was largely plot-driven. But I'm sure Kirk must have grown and developed substantially between "Where No Man Has Gone Before" and "Turnabout Intruder."

I think your suggestions, though, would make for a very interesting approach to Star Trek that many people would like to see. I know *I'd* watch it! I think just about everyone here would be encouraging of your efforts.
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Old June 1 2013, 11:25 PM   #195
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Re: Star Trek Continues "Pilgrim of Eternity"

Barbreader wrote: View Post
The idea that fan films cannot be creative could only come from somebody with a very limited view of fan films. I invite you to come to Star Trek Reviewed and watch the following:
Steam Trek: http://startrekreviewed.blogspot.com/2009/06/7.html
Stone Trek: http://startrekreviewed.blogspot.com/2009/06/8.html
Star Trek Aurora: http://startrekreviewed.blogspot.com/2009/06/8.html
Turkish Star Trek: http://startrekreviewed.blogspot.com/2009/06/28.html
Stalled Trek: http://startrekreviewed.blogspot.com/2009/06/50.html

I have limited myself to what I call "Golden Age" films... but there are many more unique and creative efforts.
Get back to us when you have something that is not a comedy.
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