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Old May 30 2013, 10:37 PM   #31
R. Star
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Re: Miranda Class VS Refit Constitution class round 2

Or it could be something as simple as 1700-1750 are for this class, 1850-1900 are for this class, even though they're being built simultaneously. Certainly the US navy did this with navy registry numbers.
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Old May 30 2013, 10:53 PM   #32
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Re: Miranda Class VS Refit Constitution class round 2

Makes sense. Unfortunately the Constellation is 1017, so there goes that bit of logic.
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Old June 1 2013, 10:57 AM   #33
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Re: Miranda Class VS Refit Constitution class round 2

How so? It just adds another block of numbers to the mix: say, 1700-17XX for ships like the Enterprise, 18YY-18ZZ for ships like the Reliant, and 1000-10AA for ships like the Constellation.

That the Enterprise and the Constellation look alike doesn't need to mean much. So do, say, the Spruance, Kidd and Ticonderoga classes of USN ships, but the last has registries in a completely different block from the others.

The thing is, ships with 18XX registries apparently already existed back in TOS "Court Martial", so a refitted Enterprise might be more modern than an unrefitted specimen of the 18XX class of ships. Or the refitting in the 2270s might have eliminated any differences in modernity between the classes.

What Khan's ship has over Kirk's is never specified in dialogue until after Kirk's ship suffers damage, gives Khan's ship some, and both sides implement hasty repairs, with different priorities. It's only then, after a very thorough shuffling of the cards, that Khan is stated to "out-run and out-gun" Kirk. And Khan did get more shots in than Kirk did...

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Old June 1 2013, 12:48 PM   #34
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Re: Miranda Class VS Refit Constitution class round 2

Timo wrote: View Post
How so? It just adds another block of numbers to the mix: say, 1700-17XX for ships like the Enterprise, 18YY-18ZZ for ships like the Reliant, and 1000-10AA for ships like the Constellation.
The constellation was a Constitution-class ship, Timo. The only reason why it has that registry is because that's the numbers that came with the model they used.
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Old June 1 2013, 01:20 PM   #35
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Re: Miranda Class VS Refit Constitution class round 2

No way of telling what class the ship was, because this was not stated anywhere.

I mean, you demonstrably can't tell Danube and Yellowstone class craft apart, nor K'Vort and B'Rel. Unless you are a Starfleet hero, that is. And since the heroes weren't sharing their wisdom with us in "The Doomsday Machine", we can do zip.

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Old June 1 2013, 02:26 PM   #36
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Re: Miranda Class VS Refit Constitution class round 2

Meh. The Yellowstone was just a lazy way to have new tech without using a new model. Again, pragmatic considerations, etc. I think the default is that, it looks the same, and it's not mentioned to be another class, therefore it probaly is the same class. I remember they actually talked about this as a problem in the Encyclopedia.
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Old June 1 2013, 02:42 PM   #37
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Re: Miranda Class VS Refit Constitution class round 2

In the Encyclopedia, everything is assumed to be the same unless specifically contradicted, hence all TOS starships are Constitutions and all pre-TOS ones are of the Daedalus class. But that's just silly: diversity is a more realistic assumption than uniformity.

Since there are just twelve ships like Kirk's, it's pretty unlikely that we would actually encounter any of these during the TOS adventures, because space is big. Thus, when a ship looking like Kirk's is seen, it's probably not part of the twelve/thirteen...

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Old June 1 2013, 03:20 PM   #38
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Re: Miranda Class VS Refit Constitution class round 2

Timo wrote: View Post
In the Encyclopedia, everything is assumed to be the same unless specifically contradicted, hence all TOS starships are Constitutions and all pre-TOS ones are of the Daedalus class. But that's just silly: diversity is a more realistic assumption than uniformity.
That's not the point: in the absence of evidence to the contrary, the null hypothesis is that identical ships are from the same class.

Besides, "diversity" in this case doesn't work, because again the ships are visually identical, both externally and internally.
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Old June 1 2013, 03:51 PM   #39
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Re: Miranda Class VS Refit Constitution class round 2

Externally, there are some differences between the AMT model they used for the Constellation and the Enterprise filming model.
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Old June 1 2013, 04:37 PM   #40
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Re: Miranda Class VS Refit Constitution class round 2

Well, yeah, since they're not the exact same model. But then, ships of the same class, in reality, aren't precisely identical anyway.

I have no trouble believing that it could be a different class, mind you. But there're just too many similarities, and the more-or-less official stuff always classifies the Constellation as a Constitution-class starship. I'd just need more than registry to take that hypothesis seriously.
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Old June 1 2013, 06:11 PM   #41
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Re: Miranda Class VS Refit Constitution class round 2

Faria wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

But Reliant's shots weren't coming from the battery. In my opinion, if Kirk raises shields, Khan doesn't stand a chance.
Naaa

the reliant was better armed, 4 torpedo launchers, 14 phaser emitters and 2 phaser cannon, than reliant was built after the constitution and problaby has more advance technology

i think reliant was an heavy cruise and tmp reliant a light cruiser
I'm fairly sure onscreen evidence shows that the Constitution Mk II class has 4 topedeo launchers. I'm sure we saw a sign saying TORP 4
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Old June 1 2013, 06:31 PM   #42
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Re: Miranda Class VS Refit Constitution class round 2

We saw signs saying "Torp Bay 2" and "Torp Bay 4" being used on different shots of the same set in ST2, yes. But we never learned how many Torp Bays it takes to keep one torpedo tube supplied.

Remarkably, the set is a two-level one, and even though you need TARDIS technology here, it's apparently supposed to be but one half of a pair, each coinciding with a torpedo tube; you could explain Torp Bays 1-4 right there and then, with two upper and two lower bays. But confusingly, Kirk originally visits the portside lower bay, with signage Torp Bay 2; Khan subsequently devastates the port side of the neck; and Spock is buried from a facility whose lower level still reads Torp Bay 2, which leads to him being ejected from the starboard tube.

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Old June 1 2013, 06:48 PM   #43
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Re: Miranda Class VS Refit Constitution class round 2

Not sure the 4 torpedo thing can be taken seriously. Otherwise we have to ignore the ship's model itself.
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Old June 1 2013, 06:59 PM   #44
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Re: Miranda Class VS Refit Constitution class round 2

Two possibilites, there are two aft torpedeo bays on the constitution Mk II class, that are hdden behind a panel say under the shuttlebay, or that the forward firing ones have 4 tubes 2 of which are fed from the bottom rather than the top.
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Old June 1 2013, 07:49 PM   #45
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Re: Miranda Class VS Refit Constitution class round 2

Or there are just two torpedo tubes, but at least four bays dedicated to the storage of torpedoes. Not combining the storage system into one big warehouse helps contain damage, just as in modern naval warfare. But any of the bays can send a torpedo to either of the tubes.

Or there is just one torpedo bay, which can be in various states of readiness. 2 is a relatively low one, suited for inspections and burials, while 1 and 0 would mean almost total inactivity; 4 means battle readiness. Thus, the sign flashes from 2 to 4 when the ship goes to battle.

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