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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
A+ 144 19.23%
A 161 21.50%
A- 101 13.48%
B+ 83 11.08%
B 59 7.88%
B- 27 3.60%
C+ 40 5.34%
C 38 5.07%
C- 25 3.34%
D+ 11 1.47%
D 13 1.74%
D- 10 1.34%
F 37 4.94%
Voters: 749. You may not vote on this poll

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Old June 1 2013, 07:10 AM   #3961
Therin of Andor
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

RPJOB wrote: View Post
Unlike Spock the audience are not telepaths. If he had a change of heart we should have seen it.
You really want movies to spoonfeed you, and to have the writers and director remove all such ambiguity from important scenes? That leaves very little to discuss afterwards except perhaps how did the creators do?

It's fun to ponder why and how characters do particular things. In real life we often don't know what's really going on in a person's head, and we must interpret from his or her actions. And we may well be wrong.

I guess you hate those episodes of CSI when the screen fades to black but not everyone has received their comeuppance?
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Old June 1 2013, 07:30 AM   #3962
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

I've never seen CSI. I know it's some sort of crime drama but I've had no desire to watch it. From what I've heard the science on it is about as far removed from reality as Star Trek's is though. That's about all I know of it.

No, I don't need things spoon fed. What I do like is seeing characters act in a way that's consistent with what we've seen of them previously. If Kirk suddenly wasn't interested in women, acting shy and withdrawn around them in STID you'd wonder what had happened since the first film.

In the fight that Spock and Uhura have on the way to Quo'Nos we find out more about their relationship and why Spock is acting as he is. Why bother having that scene if not to explain his behaviour and how it's impacting their relationship? I would have liked to see something similar to explain whey Spock was so gung ho to Take out Nero but is suddenly getting all high and mighty about the necessity of bringing Harrison back for a trail. Spcok's action at the end of the last movie was a pivotal scene. When something thematically similar came up in this one it would have been nice to see just why he's suddenly pulled a 180 from his previous position. You're perfectly welcome to ignore or speculate on it as you like.
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Old June 1 2013, 08:06 AM   #3963
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

RPJOB wrote: View Post
I've never seen CSI. I know it's some sort of crime drama but I've had no desire to watch it. From what I've heard the science on it is about as far removed from reality as Star Trek's is though. That's about all I know of it.

No, I don't need things spoon fed. What I do like is seeing characters act in a way that's consistent with what we've seen of them previously. If Kirk suddenly wasn't interested in women, acting shy and withdrawn around them in STID you'd wonder what had happened since the first film.

In the fight that Spock and Uhura have on the way to Quo'Nos we find out more about their relationship and why Spock is acting as he is. Why bother having that scene if not to explain his behaviour and how it's impacting their relationship? I would have liked to see something similar to explain whey Spock was so gung ho to Take out Nero but is suddenly getting all high and mighty about the necessity of bringing Harrison back for a trail. Spcok's action at the end of the last movie was a pivotal scene. When something thematically similar came up in this one it would have been nice to see just why he's suddenly pulled a 180 from his previous position. You're perfectly welcome to ignore or speculate on it as you like.
You've interpreted things one way and I've interpreted them another way.
You think of Spock as a crazy murdering hypocritical idiot and I've thought of Spock as taking his commission seriously and realising that Nero is mad and will keep on doing what he's doing no matter what. He doesn't have the luxury of giving Nero mercy, he has the responsibilty to stop him.
In the second instance, Khan has not revealed himself to be a planet destroying crazy yet. When he did realise this he attempted to stop him to the best of his ability by blowing up the torpedoes after they had been transported to the Vengeance. Perhaps Spock was also a murderer in that case. Perhaps he should have shown mercy to Khan again and given him one more chance to blow them up, take out the Enterprise and have control of a supership.

Last edited by Mutoid; June 1 2013 at 08:22 AM.
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Old June 1 2013, 09:07 AM   #3964
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
In TWOK, Kirk and Khan never even meet in person, even though Kirk is the hero and Khan is the villain. That left the audience totally confused. Bad film.
RAMA wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
In TWOK, Kirk and Khan never even meet in person, even though Kirk is the hero and Khan is the villain. That left the audience totally confused. Bad film.

A missed opportunity...and I'm saying did STID do it RIGHT...making Khan more fierce as well as meeting Kirk in person. Khan even uses Kirk as a means to an end in STID...but then viciously attacks him. It feels like the movie one upped TWOK.

RAMA
The hero not meeting the villain happened in The Fifth Element, so it wasn't out of place in TWOK.
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Old June 1 2013, 09:22 AM   #3965
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
In TWOK, Kirk and Khan never even meet in person, even though Kirk is the hero and Khan is the villain. That left the audience totally confused. Bad film.
RAMA wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
In TWOK, Kirk and Khan never even meet in person, even though Kirk is the hero and Khan is the villain. That left the audience totally confused. Bad film.

A missed opportunity...and I'm saying did STID do it RIGHT...making Khan more fierce as well as meeting Kirk in person. Khan even uses Kirk as a means to an end in STID...but then viciously attacks him. It feels like the movie one upped TWOK.

RAMA
The hero not meeting the villain happened in The Fifth Element, so it wasn't out of place in TWOK.
TWOK(1982) came before The Fifth Element(1997)...
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Old June 1 2013, 11:06 AM   #3966
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

RPJOB wrote: View Post
Kirk was prepared to rescue Nero and his crew and he took Spock's rejection of the offer as a chance to execute Nero.
Or a chance to end the most dangerous villain the world had ever seen. You are insisting on viewing this a certain way.

Also: Spock just lost BILLIONS of his kin. If you don't think this is going to affect your decisions, I don't know what to tell you.

And the idea that a theatre of people would give up a rousing cheer over the execution of a foe that's been rendered helpless makes me wonder just what they feel.
They feel it's a MOVIE with a rousing ending for the villain.

Please don't try to conflate that with anything pertaining to reality. I laughed my ass off when I saw Hannibal Lecter show us a guy's exposed brain and eating it, in the second Lecter movie. I wouldn't find it funny in real life.
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Old June 1 2013, 11:09 AM   #3967
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Rincewiend wrote: View Post
Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
The hero not meeting the villain happened in The Fifth Element, so it wasn't out of place in TWOK.
TWOK(1982) came before The Fifth Element(1997)...
I don't think that was the point, there.
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Old June 1 2013, 11:28 AM   #3968
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

RPJOB wrote: View Post
And the idea that a theatre of people would give up a rousing cheer over the execution of a foe that's been rendered helpless makes me wonder just what they feel.

We don't have to bring ourselves down to the level of those we're fighting.
So, when you saw "Star Trek" (2009), and Nero got his comeuppance, your fellow cinema audience members all sat there, stunned, and murmuring, "Murderers! Murderers!"?

If these same people watched Balance of Terror would they be calling for Kirk to blow away the Romulan Commander? His actions could have started a war that could have lead to the loss of a lot more than just Vulcan.
The point of that ep was that he was more of a noble savage, not a delusional, grief-stricken, vengeful whackjob like Nero.
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Old June 1 2013, 11:44 AM   #3969
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Spock's key line in STXI: "No, not this time."

Spock wasn't gung ho about killing Khan because Khan's crimes were nothing in comparison to what Nero did. Even the killing of Pike, a friend and mentor of Spock, doesn't come close to the six billion Nero killed, including his mother.
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Old June 1 2013, 11:51 AM   #3970
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Anybody else thinking that Khan is still alive so he can come back in 15 years to unleash his wrath on Kirk?

Maybe he'll spend that time in a Spanish prison camp doing hard labor and get a nice tan.

The universe is still trying to correct itself, you know.
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Old June 1 2013, 12:23 PM   #3971
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

RAMA wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
In TWOK, Kirk and Khan never even meet in person, even though Kirk is the hero and Khan is the villain. That left the audience totally confused. Bad film.
A missed opportunity...and I'm saying did STID do it RIGHT...making Khan more fierce as well as meeting Kirk in person. Khan even uses Kirk as a means to an end in STID...but then viciously attacks him. It feels like the movie one upped TWOK.
I know it's the in-thing at the moment to shit on old Trek but I can't agree that STID ups TWOK by introducing movie cliches and removing the element that made TWOK unique.

The villain and the hero meeting up for traditional fisticuffs is bordering on the cliche these days, as is the villain 'using' the heroes (see The Dark Knight, The Avengers, Skyfall...)

TWOK would not nearly be so highly regarded if they all beamed down to a planet somewhere and had a punch up.
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Old June 1 2013, 12:45 PM   #3972
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Shazam! wrote: View Post
I know it's the in-thing at the moment to shit on old Trek
You are wrong.
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Old June 1 2013, 12:51 PM   #3973
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Shazam! wrote: View Post
I know it's the in-thing at the moment to shit on old Trek but I can't agree that STID ups TWOK by introducing movie cliches and removing the element that made TWOK unique.
TWOK is unique ?

The villain and the hero meeting up for traditional fisticuffs is bordering on the cliche these days
"These days" ?
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Old June 1 2013, 01:23 PM   #3974
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Shazam! wrote: View Post

I know it's the in-thing at the moment to shit on old Trek...
Whose shitting on old Trek?

The Wrath of Khan and Star Trek Into Darkness are two films separated by thirty-plus years and different audience expectations. I watched TWOK after the second time I saw STiD and it is still an incredibly entertaining film.

Either Nero was going to be captured or destroyed by Kirk. They weren't going to take a chance on him slipping through another black hole and causing more havoc elsewhere.
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Old June 1 2013, 03:42 PM   #3975
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Khan's crimes were nothing in comparison to what Nero did.
As far as Spock knows, maybe, depending on what Spock Prime related in the Cliffs Notes call. I don't know if it's worth getting into a "who is the worse genocidal terrorist" contest between Nero and nuKhan. Khan just puts a little more intellectual pretention into his mass murder.

Anybody else thinking that Khan is still alive so he can come back in 15 years to unleash his wrath on Kirk?
Great minds do think alike! This universe has set things closer to where I'd like them to be.
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