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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old June 1 2013, 03:44 AM   #31
Anna Yolei
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Re: Is TBOBW As Good As You Remembered?

billcosby wrote: View Post
Yes, they are as good as I remember.

Perhaps the reason for the quality split in the episodes is that they weren't written together; IIRC the first part was written just as TNG was taking off with huge success and when they took a break between seasons the writers/producers weren't even considering what to do for part 2 until the fourth season began. So they might have painted themselves into a corner in terms of writing their way out. I agree the conclusion could have been a bit more exciting than putting them to sleep.
I remember reading that BOBW was a two-parter because Patrick Stewart had yet to sign on for season four, and TPTB wanted a way to write him out in case he walked away.

In any even, speaking as someone that saw the episode way after all that drama went down, the better story was that between Riker and Shelby, IMO. Sorry, but the drama of Locutus of Borg is kind of undercut when I know he'll be fine by the end of part II.

That being said:

I also want to add that re-watching TBOBW should also include "Family" as the third part. Although no where near the amount of action/excitement than the two previous, it's good because it humanizes Picard totally after such an emotional ordeal.
Absolutely.
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Old June 1 2013, 04:15 AM   #32
TheSubCommander
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Re: Is TBOBW As Good As You Remembered?

sonak wrote: View Post
yes they're as good as I remembered. TNG's finest hour-TV Trek never surpassed the BOBW cliffhanger of season 3.

Agree to disagree: Redemption and Unification are right up there, too. Too tough to call for me.
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Old June 1 2013, 06:08 AM   #33
HaventGotALife
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Re: Is TBOBW As Good As You Remembered?

AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
So tonight I rewatched TBOBW on the special edition blu ray. Honestly, it's not as amazing as I remember it being. Part 1 is good. Lots of drama, tension, and action. Picard's fears about the impending battle, the conflict between Riker and Shelby, Riker pondering about his future in Starfleet....this was all great! The buildup to the Borg appearing was paced well and effective. Part 2 is what really brings it down for me though. I'm not just going to criticize the 'sleep' solution. For a conflict of this scale with such huge ramifications for the future, it seemed like not an awful lot happened. Where were the Klingons, Romulans, and the other superpowers? Why was there only a single Borg cube? This felt like a conflict between the Enterprise and the Borg, rather thana conflict between the the Federation, it's allies, and the Borg. The stakes never felt very high to me. Once Picard was saved the tension just dissolved. I can understand if this episode was a real shocker the first time around, especially if you had just watched part 1 and had months to wait before part 2. But in retrospective, is this episode really as good as you remembered?
Yes, they are better than I remember. I think it was skillful what Riker did to get Picard. You think he's just trying to save Picard, but they are trying to gain access to the Borg to make them less effective. It uses their brains. It gives them the technology to reverse assimilation. Too much of Star Trek (especially now) is just having the bigger weapon or the perfect torpedo or phaser. Sometimes the plot just resolves itself without ever thinking too hard about why our heroes survived. It's bland and boring for this Star Trek fan, unlike Best of Both Worlds. The second half is perfect TNG. It exposes the flaws of having one, collective mind. The Borg created their own demise by having Picard as a representative and linked to the hive mind. In the first half, the Borg use all of Picard's knowledge to put us on the edge of assimilation. In the second half, we turn the tables. We use the conduit that is in Picard to find a way to end the conflict. That's fantastic, and something I couldn't think of in a million years.

Part one builds the action. I feel the tension in part two when they have no answer for the Borg. To see the graves of all those Starfleet officers and ships at Wolf 359, that's in the second half. You don't feel for all those officers? It was a dark place to take Trek, a real risk, especially TNG. I found myself asking, "How will they get out of this? Will we be at war for the rest of the run of the show?"

We see the "What would you do?" scene with Guinan and Riker. The writers are able to tackle moving on from having Picard without firing Patrick Stewart. And it's part of Riker's story that he's thrust into command because of losing Picard, getting what he always wanted, and if he was Shelby, he might revel in the promotion a little. But he doesn't. Picard is gone, and he has to think differently than Picard. His "unorthodox" strategy saves Earth as we know it because it is something Picard would never do, risk one man for the sake of the entire Federation. It is bad strategy. But he is the key to ending this conflict. They tied both getting Picard back on the ship and ending the conflict. Think about it--how else would you have done it? Picard is over there, do we kill him? That was the cliffhanger. Does Picard have to lead an assault on-board the Enterprise and we capture him? This is just a masterful piece of writing when you think about it a little. It's original, unlike a lot of Trek now that is just standard "blow them up" fare.
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Old June 1 2013, 07:01 AM   #34
MikeS
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Re: Is TBOBW As Good As You Remembered?

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
VOY Unity Stupid pile of junk. Good thing the Borg had wigs on those cubes otherwise the mystery of this episode would've been solved in the first couple of minutes. Neat contrast to Hugh from "I, Borg". Borg drones become individuals and the first thing they do is form a NEW collective. No one escapes the Borg!
Rating D
Have to disagree with your rating of this one. For the reasons listed in the post above mine. This is an interesting story with an interesting premise - it's the Tower of Babel, not just cool 'splosions and stuff.
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Old June 1 2013, 08:12 AM   #35
Tiberius
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Re: Is TBOBW As Good As You Remembered?

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
So tonight I rewatched TBOBW on the special edition blu ray. Honestly, it's not as amazing as I remember it being. Part 1 is good. Lots of drama, tension, and action. Picard's fears about the impending battle, the conflict between Riker and Shelby, Riker pondering about his future in Starfleet....this was all great! The buildup to the Borg appearing was paced well and effective. Part 2 is what really brings it down for me though. I'm not just going to criticize the 'sleep' solution. For a conflict of this scale with such huge ramifications for the future, it seemed like not an awful lot happened. Where were the Klingons, Romulans, and the other superpowers? Why was there only a single Borg cube? This felt like a conflict between the Enterprise and the Borg, rather thana conflict between the the Federation, it's allies, and the Borg. The stakes never felt very high to me. Once Picard was saved the tension just dissolved. I can understand if this episode was a real shocker the first time around, especially if you had just watched part 1 and had months to wait before part 2. But in retrospective, is this episode really as good as you remembered?
Yes, they are better than I remember. I think it was skillful what Riker did to get Picard. You think he's just trying to save Picard, but they are trying to gain access to the Borg to make them less effective. It uses their brains. It gives them the technology to reverse assimilation. Too much of Star Trek (especially now) is just having the bigger weapon or the perfect torpedo or phaser. Sometimes the plot just resolves itself without ever thinking too hard about why our heroes survived. It's bland and boring for this Star Trek fan, unlike Best of Both Worlds. The second half is perfect TNG. It exposes the flaws of having one, collective mind. The Borg created their own demise by having Picard as a representative and linked to the hive mind. In the first half, the Borg use all of Picard's knowledge to put us on the edge of assimilation. In the second half, we turn the tables. We use the conduit that is in Picard to find a way to end the conflict. That's fantastic, and something I couldn't think of in a million years.

Part one builds the action. I feel the tension in part two when they have no answer for the Borg. To see the graves of all those Starfleet officers and ships at Wolf 359, that's in the second half. You don't feel for all those officers? It was a dark place to take Trek, a real risk, especially TNG. I found myself asking, "How will they get out of this? Will we be at war for the rest of the run of the show?"

We see the "What would you do?" scene with Guinan and Riker. The writers are able to tackle moving on from having Picard without firing Patrick Stewart. And it's part of Riker's story that he's thrust into command because of losing Picard, getting what he always wanted, and if he was Shelby, he might revel in the promotion a little. But he doesn't. Picard is gone, and he has to think differently than Picard. His "unorthodox" strategy saves Earth as we know it because it is something Picard would never do, risk one man for the sake of the entire Federation. It is bad strategy. But he is the key to ending this conflict. They tied both getting Picard back on the ship and ending the conflict. Think about it--how else would you have done it? Picard is over there, do we kill him? That was the cliffhanger. Does Picard have to lead an assault on-board the Enterprise and we capture him? This is just a masterful piece of writing when you think about it a little. It's original, unlike a lot of Trek now that is just standard "blow them up" fare.
Have you read my novelization of these episodes? (See link in my signature) Because that's exactly the same view I have of part 2. If the resolution had been, "Oh, we've found if we put a subspace invetror in the deflector dish, our weapon will work!" then it would have been cheap. The best resolutions are always, I think, the ones achieved by superior brain power, not superior firepower.

I love the way Picard beat the Sheliak, for example.
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Old June 1 2013, 01:42 PM   #36
HaventGotALife
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Re: Is TBOBW As Good As You Remembered?

Tiberius wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
So tonight I rewatched TBOBW on the special edition blu ray. Honestly, it's not as amazing as I remember it being. Part 1 is good. Lots of drama, tension, and action. Picard's fears about the impending battle, the conflict between Riker and Shelby, Riker pondering about his future in Starfleet....this was all great! The buildup to the Borg appearing was paced well and effective. Part 2 is what really brings it down for me though. I'm not just going to criticize the 'sleep' solution. For a conflict of this scale with such huge ramifications for the future, it seemed like not an awful lot happened. Where were the Klingons, Romulans, and the other superpowers? Why was there only a single Borg cube? This felt like a conflict between the Enterprise and the Borg, rather thana conflict between the the Federation, it's allies, and the Borg. The stakes never felt very high to me. Once Picard was saved the tension just dissolved. I can understand if this episode was a real shocker the first time around, especially if you had just watched part 1 and had months to wait before part 2. But in retrospective, is this episode really as good as you remembered?
Yes, they are better than I remember. I think it was skillful what Riker did to get Picard. You think he's just trying to save Picard, but they are trying to gain access to the Borg to make them less effective. It uses their brains. It gives them the technology to reverse assimilation. Too much of Star Trek (especially now) is just having the bigger weapon or the perfect torpedo or phaser. Sometimes the plot just resolves itself without ever thinking too hard about why our heroes survived. It's bland and boring for this Star Trek fan, unlike Best of Both Worlds. The second half is perfect TNG. It exposes the flaws of having one, collective mind. The Borg created their own demise by having Picard as a representative and linked to the hive mind. In the first half, the Borg use all of Picard's knowledge to put us on the edge of assimilation. In the second half, we turn the tables. We use the conduit that is in Picard to find a way to end the conflict. That's fantastic, and something I couldn't think of in a million years.

Part one builds the action. I feel the tension in part two when they have no answer for the Borg. To see the graves of all those Starfleet officers and ships at Wolf 359, that's in the second half. You don't feel for all those officers? It was a dark place to take Trek, a real risk, especially TNG. I found myself asking, "How will they get out of this? Will we be at war for the rest of the run of the show?"

We see the "What would you do?" scene with Guinan and Riker. The writers are able to tackle moving on from having Picard without firing Patrick Stewart. And it's part of Riker's story that he's thrust into command because of losing Picard, getting what he always wanted, and if he was Shelby, he might revel in the promotion a little. But he doesn't. Picard is gone, and he has to think differently than Picard. His "unorthodox" strategy saves Earth as we know it because it is something Picard would never do, risk one man for the sake of the entire Federation. It is bad strategy. But he is the key to ending this conflict. They tied both getting Picard back on the ship and ending the conflict. Think about it--how else would you have done it? Picard is over there, do we kill him? That was the cliffhanger. Does Picard have to lead an assault on-board the Enterprise and we capture him? This is just a masterful piece of writing when you think about it a little. It's original, unlike a lot of Trek now that is just standard "blow them up" fare.
Have you read my novelization of these episodes? (See link in my signature) Because that's exactly the same view I have of part 2. If the resolution had been, "Oh, we've found if we put a subspace invetror in the deflector dish, our weapon will work!" then it would have been cheap. The best resolutions are always, I think, the ones achieved by superior brain power, not superior firepower.

I love the way Picard beat the Sheliak, for example.
Even going back to TOS--The Corbomite Manuever. "Not Chess, Mr. Spock, poker." In a show about the human condition, it is better to use their brains then to use brawn.

I haven't read a Star Trek novel in close to 15 years, and I never read the Best of Both Worlds. Maybe it's time to change that.
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Old June 1 2013, 10:56 PM   #37
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Is TBOBW As Good As You Remembered?

AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
So tonight I rewatched TBOBW on the special edition blu ray. Honestly, it's not as amazing as I remember it being. Part 1 is good. Lots of drama, tension, and action. Picard's fears about the impending battle, the conflict between Riker and Shelby, Riker pondering about his future in Starfleet....this was all great! The buildup to the Borg appearing was paced well and effective. Part 2 is what really brings it down for me though. I'm not just going to criticize the 'sleep' solution. For a conflict of this scale with such huge ramifications for the future, it seemed like not an awful lot happened. Where were the Klingons, Romulans, and the other superpowers? Why was there only a single Borg cube? This felt like a conflict between the Enterprise and the Borg, rather thana conflict between the the Federation, it's allies, and the Borg. The stakes never felt very high to me. Once Picard was saved the tension just dissolved. I can understand if this episode was a real shocker the first time around, especially if you had just watched part 1 and had months to wait before part 2. But in retrospective, is this episode really as good as you remembered?
For the criticism about the single Borg cube, circa 1990 it had not been established there were thousands of cubes over in the DQ. All we knew about at the time was one cube.

The Klingons and Romulans were not there because they did not have time to get to Earth. And the Romulans wouldn't have gotten involved anyway, they would have taken the extra time to shore up their own defenses rather than try to protect the Federation.

Part two isn't as good as part one, but taken together they are one of the finest hour and halfs in the Star Trek canon.
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Old June 12 2013, 07:13 PM   #38
DalekJim
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Re: Is TBOBW As Good As You Remembered?

Part 1's cliffhanger will forever get me pumped. The moment Riker showed me how badass he could be.
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Old June 13 2013, 07:04 PM   #39
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Re: Is TBOBW As Good As You Remembered?

It'll never be as amazing and thrilling as it was when first watched. When you know how it's all going to end ahead of time, it just doesn't have quite the same punch.
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Old June 13 2013, 07:24 PM   #40
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Re: Is TBOBW As Good As You Remembered?

I still love it and it remains my favorite episode of the run. I actually like part 2 better now because I don't have to wait months between viewings. Seeing it as one whole "movie" actually was pretty damned cool. The story holds together nicely considering part 2 wasn't figured out when they went on hiatus.
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Old June 14 2013, 04:58 AM   #41
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Re: Is TBOBW As Good As You Remembered?

I think the whole point of there being just one cube at the beginning was to show us how damn powerful The Borg were, that they didn't "need" more than 1 cube to take on 29 Federation Ships without a scratch.

First Contact would have been better with more cubes and a DS9 "Sacrifice of Angels" level of Federation ships to fight them. I'm happy we got what we got though, considering that's the best TNG movie, and that's not saying much.

The whole idea about using Picard against The Borg was kind of expected, but the genius comes in at Picard himself being the one who gives them the solution with his "sleep" statement. I freakin' loved that! It was great that everyone thought he was just exhausted, while Data actually deduced the true meaning of it.

As for VOY, Scorpion I and II were great also, particularly for successfully one upping TBOBW. In the one, we have an enemy so powerful that it whacks the Federation in 2 mins. In the other, that same super powerful force meets a force so much more powerful, that it's whacking *them* in 2 mins. The ending of Scorpion 2 was good, but I wish it would have gotten fleshed out and not so rushed to get the episode to end.
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Old June 14 2013, 06:39 AM   #42
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Re: Is TBOBW As Good As You Remembered?

The way they stopped the Borg in BOBW was pretty smart, and actually ahead of its time.

Aside from destroying it, how do you more or less incapacitate a computer that has a self-sustaining battery? You put it in sleep mode!
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Old June 14 2013, 06:46 AM   #43
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Re: Is TBOBW As Good As You Remembered?

Part 1 is an amazing episode, but I think I love Part 2 just as much if not a little more. Nowadays, the way to resolve something is through non-stop action and guns ablazing, This episode decided to do what TNG has always done best, take this problem, and actually solve it in a creative, kind of logical way. I like the comparison to how Picard dealt with the Shiliak because it's kind of the same thing. Riker and Data used the Borg's own system against them, just like how Picard used the contract. Like I said, it was really creative and a pretty satisfying ending.
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Old June 15 2013, 07:40 PM   #44
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Re: Is TBOBW As Good As You Remembered?

The music is still awesome as is the wonderful sense of foreboding that I feel every time I watch it.
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Old June 18 2013, 04:50 AM   #45
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Re: Is TBOBW As Good As You Remembered?

Anna Yolei wrote: View Post
I remember reading that BOBW was a two-parter because Patrick Stewart had yet to sign on for season four, and TPTB wanted a way to write him out in case he walked away.
This has been said many times, but in one the blu-ray docs (think it was from season 1) Patrick Stewart recounts being shocked when he was told by his agent that he had committed for six season when he signed onto the show.

I think it more likely that Stewart may have been considering leaving the series. But, again, I don't recall ever reading any interview or blurb from Stewart or anyone (working on the show) that he was seriously considering trying to get out of his contract.
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